The same reason they are not trying to market the Xbox as a TV platform.
The General State of VR Gaming in 2022 *spawn*
- Thread starter SmooTh
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Johnny Awesome
Veteran
I'm confident that MS are letting Sony figure it out and then will iterate from there with some hardware partner if it becomes relevant.
Yet we all want VR to match atleast what Alyx does and way beyond, graphiccally. Maybe next gen or the gen thereafter we will see VR being something more than a gimmick, when the tech allows for UE5 demo visuals, at the least or even matching non-vr games at the time, while being wireless and more affordable.
They probably cant overcome comfort though, for casual gaming (non-sim), i dont see many gamers using these for hours on end, in most multiplayer games or for all genres of gaming.
On oled/lcd, there are people who get headaches when viewing content up close caused by oled tech, on mobile phones atleast. Could that and burn in be the reason most vr sets go with lcd?
Windows central article on VR/psvr2
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-mixed-reality-and-psvr2?amp
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Probably because VR makes such a miniscule niche market within gaming that MS aren't yet ready to fully commit to bringing a VR device to console.
The VR market still hasn't taken off in any significant way despite Oculus Quest 2 selling in much larger numbers than any previous headset. Quest sold roughly as much as PSVR while Quest 2 sold multiple times what either sold and those are the top 3 headsets WRT unit sales. Yet despite that VR games still struggle to do well and most people that have purchased a VR headset have them sitting around gathering dust.
It'll be interesting to see if PSVR 2 can reinvigorate excitement about VR and actually lead to it being a profitable market for serious game development rather than bite sized experiences that eventually lead to user disillusionment with VR games. Almost all content creators and RL friends of mine that were huge proponents of VR and still believe that VR could be the future of gaming ... haven't touched their VR headsets in the last 6-12 months (PSVR, Index, and Quest 2). NOTE - not all VR proponents have grown disillusioned WRT the state of VR games.
Just look at some of the VR enthusiasts here. Most of them are excited about PSVR 2, but are skeptical about whether that will lead to VR taking off or not.
VR is doing relatively better in Japan (albeit much of the draw is NSFW VR games and videos
), so Sony see's it as dual opportunities. One, there's a chance that it can make PS relevant in Japan again. Two, perhaps this will be what finally transitions VR from being a very small gaming niche into something more. If they can make it into something more, then the profit potential is potentially huge since no other VR player has managed to do that yet.Basically, Sony and MS are focusing on different gambles within the gaming world. However, MS is looking at past performance of VR and questioning whether there's a profitable future in it whereas Sony, obviously, still sees a potentially profitable future in VR. Profitable future as in significantly profitable rather than profits being barely higher than statistical noise.
Regards,
SB
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I think Sony was really close to dropping VR, and I think the Quest 2 sales numbers actually swayed the balance in favor of releasing a PSVR2.
For me this is great news, because 98% of my gaming time is in the Quest 2, playing Table Tennis and lately back to Beat Saber because I played so much table tennis my knee is starting to hurt. I still also box a lot. It’s a market that is still being neglected by some of the bigger developers which I understand but I still regret. SuperHot also remains a classic and I sometimes do some boxing too.
After the resolution and convenience of Quest 2 it’s been pretty hard to go back to PSVR. And from the number of new players in Winning Eleven I think a lot of new players came in.
I have played Beat Saber for 4 years now. I still think it is utterly amazing. It looks fantastic, it has great music (current favorite is the Skrillex pack) and the gameplay depth and challenge is superb. I can still improve, recently I’ve focused on ghost notes etc. My ranking in table tennis hovers around or just below the 2k now.
It has caused me to neglect the PS5 more than I expected, to be honest. There is something about having your games be a physical workout that is just perfect for me.
And no matter hoe great some games look, Beat Saber looks better, even with the just 1.5TF that Quest has. It looks awesome. And a big part of that is just the fact that you are IN the game. There is nothing like it and regular gaming continues to feel flat.
Oh and someone made the dream I had back from Infamous come true, where you can spray Graffiti in VR, it’s great [emoji16] (Graffiti Kings VR)
For me this is great news, because 98% of my gaming time is in the Quest 2, playing Table Tennis and lately back to Beat Saber because I played so much table tennis my knee is starting to hurt. I still also box a lot. It’s a market that is still being neglected by some of the bigger developers which I understand but I still regret. SuperHot also remains a classic and I sometimes do some boxing too.
After the resolution and convenience of Quest 2 it’s been pretty hard to go back to PSVR. And from the number of new players in Winning Eleven I think a lot of new players came in.
I have played Beat Saber for 4 years now. I still think it is utterly amazing. It looks fantastic, it has great music (current favorite is the Skrillex pack) and the gameplay depth and challenge is superb. I can still improve, recently I’ve focused on ghost notes etc. My ranking in table tennis hovers around or just below the 2k now.
It has caused me to neglect the PS5 more than I expected, to be honest. There is something about having your games be a physical workout that is just perfect for me.
And no matter hoe great some games look, Beat Saber looks better, even with the just 1.5TF that Quest has. It looks awesome. And a big part of that is just the fact that you are IN the game. There is nothing like it and regular gaming continues to feel flat.
Oh and someone made the dream I had back from Infamous come true, where you can spray Graffiti in VR, it’s great [emoji16] (Graffiti Kings VR)
RE4 VR On Quest 2 "looks" better than RE7 PSVR, even if the graphics are a lot less detailed, it's much sharper, and you actually pick items and hold your weapons, that makes a huge difference.
And another big contender should leverage VR even more soon, Apple.
I could show great looking PS4-5 games to people and they would say "yeah nice" and that was it, but every person i made to try VR felt amazed.
And another big contender should leverage VR even more soon, Apple.
I could show great looking PS4-5 games to people and they would say "yeah nice" and that was it, but every person i made to try VR felt amazed.
Absolutely agree about beat sabre, the arenas can be visually exhilarating despite the low complexity. Can you add custom tracks into the Quest version? I know you could on the Rift but not sure if that capability has now been patched out.
snc
Veteran
not only immersion is factor, 3d looks momentaly increase graphic quality over flat screen, psvr1 has too low resolutoin as was too blury, gt7 in psvr2 cockpit view could be quite close to photorealism
snc
Veteran
no to be honest even 4k is still not optimal but for sure anything above that is too much for ps5, about feedback in headset it could be game changer as there are research showing it reduce vr sickness (also how cool will be to feel rain in games or acceleration/braking in gt7 ;d)
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Quest 2 is over 10 millions alone now, so VR in general (not counting gear VR etc...)is closer to 20mill now.
The headset will send vibrations, not shakes, it should be much less than what you feel riding a bike for example.
As for the resolution, that's where Foveated rendering comes in useful. You'll need full res only in the center of focus of the eyes, that will free a lot of processing power.
If they can reach a slighty better detail than PS4 games, it still will be a huge deal. Quest (and some PSVR) games already use foveated rendering, but it's fixed at the center of the image, so if you move your eye and not your head you end up seeing lower res image at the edge of the FoV.
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
Equally, you can't just sit about waiting for others to build markets. Microsoft were a little late to the market with digital audio players with Zune and got next to no market penetration. The same with the original Xbox and again Windows Phone. When it comes to software ventures it feels like Microsot are ready to leap early and takes risks but it's not the same with hardware for them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If PSVR2 suddenly explodes in popularity, vastly outselling the 6 million PSVR headsets Sony sold for PS4, Microsot stand to lose a lot of sales. You have need to products ready to sell when consumers suddenly decide they want them and that's why companies get in early. To build that first killer must-have product.
Wonder how much foveated rendering reduces the shading requirements.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Sure but being early doesn't necessarily net you success either. MS brought out tablets years before either Apple or Google. Apple brought out a PDA years before Palm, but Palm saw far more success and made it an actual market. Sony came out with a home video player/recorder first. BetaMax entered the market 2 years before VHS entered the market.
You mention MS being late with Zune. But, Creative Labs, Sony, and many other companies brought out MP3 players years before Apple. Apple were arguably late to the MP3 player party, but their device and PR combined to make the iPod the "must have" MP3 player.
MS are obviously a little skittish. Total VR headset sales from all manufacturer's still haven't matched how many units Kinect V1 sold. But Kinect is no longer a viable consumer product (although the tech lives on in other MS products). Selling lots of hardware doesn't necessarily create a profitable market. Hell selling lots of games made for that hardware doesn't necessarily create a profitable market. I don't think any VR title has come even remotely close to selling as many titles as the top 10 Kinect V1 titles.
MS have many partners that make VR headsets, so there are likely plans to bring VR to XBS consoles if MS see's any evidence of it taking off. Although with VR being on the decline despite how well Quest 2 has sold, many of those partners (like Asus and Acer) have abandoned the VR headset market.
But something worth keeping in mind. MS has invested a lot into Game Pass in order to not only make a profit but to make gaming more affordable for the masses. What's notably missing? Any VR games or any support for VR headsets.
They've basically looked at what type of games sell on VR and how well they sold on PSVR, Oculus store (Quest and Rift), and how VR titles perform on Steam and they currently don't see a very profitable future in it. This isn't to say that someone won't eventually succeed, but MS currently don't see it as a smart way to invest their money.
As I've mentioned Quest 2 has basically sold more hardware units than all other VR headsets combined, yet VR games still fail to take off. And that has a lot going for it. It's self contained. It has a curated storefront. Oculus (Facebook/Meta/Whatever) invest heavily in VR game development by 3rd parties. For all intents and purposes it's a gaming console.
Yet games still struggle to do well and I believe there are less developers attempting to make VR games now than there were 2-4 years ago. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that. I hope PSVR 2 manages to do "something" to get VR to take off, but the practical part of my mind is skeptical that any VR device that is a bulky headset (anything larger than say a large pair of glasses) will manage to light a fire under consumers arses and suddenly get them to not only buy headsets in droves but buy enough games to get more developers onboard making VR games.
Perhaps with continuing recurring coronavirus lockdowns, that'll foster a consumer environment that is more willing to take a chance on VR. /shrug. I really do hope VR takes off as I'd like a VR headset that is likely at least 2-3 generations in the future. If the VR market doesn't take off, the VR headset I'd like for my own personal use may never get made.
Regards,
SB
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Its good to hear DF so excited for PSVR2 appears to be an excellent piece of technology. I think people are going to be surprised by the number of game support for VR. The performance efficiency gained using Foveated rendering should allow devs easy conversion of regular flat PS5 games to perform at 4K 90/120fps in the headset. In theory anyway, have to wait and see of course and that's just using Sony's FSR.
I'm even more excited for further engine optimizations with foveated rendering in mind. Foveated Raytracing - reducing the number of rays cast in the periphery of the eye and only use best setting where the player is actually looking. Could this help optimise UE5 for PSVR2 using eye tracking to enable foveated nanite, foveated lumin? Epic and Sony appear to have a good working relationship so i would expect to see optimisations to take advantage of eye tracking and foveated rendering.
I'm even more excited for further engine optimizations with foveated rendering in mind. Foveated Raytracing - reducing the number of rays cast in the periphery of the eye and only use best setting where the player is actually looking. Could this help optimise UE5 for PSVR2 using eye tracking to enable foveated nanite, foveated lumin? Epic and Sony appear to have a good working relationship so i would expect to see optimisations to take advantage of eye tracking and foveated rendering.
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I've found Xbox's stance on VR really odd over the years, as mentioned they announced One X with a clear message of bringing hi fidelity VR to gamers. Not only did they go quiet about a VR device for One X after launch but Phil Spencer seemed to have a change of heart about VR saying "I have some issues with VR, It's isolating, We're responding to what our customers are asking for and... nobody's asking for VR."
More recently doubling down on the message by saying if you want a VR experience you can find it elsewhere.
With Microsoft's current business plans of trying to democratise gaming, play your games anywhere, Xbox, PC, Cloud. Can a full VR experience fit with their plans? How can a VR game be played on the Phone or tablet? It couldn't. So maybe it makes sense for them to omit VR from there grand plan of reaching more gamers and playing the same games anywhere. WMR headsets should also be easy for Microsoft to make compatible with Xbox, but hasn't happened. Like i said earlier its odd to me.
More recently doubling down on the message by saying if you want a VR experience you can find it elsewhere.
With Microsoft's current business plans of trying to democratise gaming, play your games anywhere, Xbox, PC, Cloud. Can a full VR experience fit with their plans? How can a VR game be played on the Phone or tablet? It couldn't. So maybe it makes sense for them to omit VR from there grand plan of reaching more gamers and playing the same games anywhere. WMR headsets should also be easy for Microsoft to make compatible with Xbox, but hasn't happened. Like i said earlier its odd to me.
Reasonable consideration as well. It's not really play anywhere if you have to lug a box around with you. If their headset was like Quest 2, then in theory you could download your titles to your headset and take that where you go. So perhaps your insight there gives some idea that if Xbox were to enter the VR space, that is the type of device they would have to go with.
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
Given the policies Facebook/Meta have since begun applying to their own VR products (like the need for Facebook accounts) perhaps Microsoft couldn't work our a deal that didn't require them surrendering the privacy of Xbox users. The amount of customer tracking that already goes on is mega creepy but introducing eye-tracking where the dame device completely has your full attention all of the time? Sheesh..
The technology has to be ready, and increasingly that includes a software ecosystems. The price also has to be right. 1980s/1990s Apple was a different beast to modern Apple who just hit it out of the park from the coloured iMac, iPod, modern MacBooks, iPhone, iPad, Watch. Likewise, you can't win them all of the time (unless yours Apple it seems).
If you don't participate at all, you definitely can't win sales. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I had a Diamond Rio MP3 player before I had a 2nd Generation original iPod. The iPod wasn't necessary a better audio player (ok its was, let's not be mad) but Apple backed up the hardware with software (iTunes) and a store that made getting music easy. The only other company do that was Microsoft with Zune, but they launched that six years after Apple's iPod and six months before Apple announced the iPhone. This was comically bad timing.
It'll take a good whilst for Microsoft to even rush VR to Xbox when/if VR shows promising sales.
Microsoft's 2021 Annual Report reads differently. They are all over mixed reality (VR/AR) and investing heavily in supporting this through their infrastructure and enterprise capabilities.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Yes, they are investing heavily in the development side of things. But that also gives them some insight into how much (or little) and how rapidly (or not) developers are working on VR/AR as well as what VR/AR markets are seeing the most interest and the most spending from developers. That's likely feeding into any decisions they make WRT potentially bringing VR to Xbox or even Game Pass.
Last I heard, the major money to be made WRT to VR wasn't games, but business, education, medical and corporate projects. You can see this with an OEM like HP that has mostly abandoned consumer level VR in favor of corporate level VR with a small interest in "prosumer" VR users. Notice no Omen (their gaming brand) branded VR headsets.
Regards,
SB
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Or you can be at the forefront of a tech market only to see a competitor innovative product explode in popularity and dominate the market while you languish with limited sales.
MS was in the smartphone business early only to be outcompeted by both Blackberry and Apple/Google.
It’s not like MS is not in the VR/AR business, they just operating in high end wares where the technical challenges aren’t necessarily encumbered by needing cheap solutions.
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