The Console Arms Race: Is This What Console Gamers Want?

Do you like the idea of half-cycle (tick-tock) upgrades and forwards compatibility?


  • Total voters
    75
Console arms race http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Pro-Graphics-P580.158272.0.html
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/change-the-game-with-nuc.html

It doesn't compete with the consoles on price, but it does compete with the consoles in performance (GT4e with 72 EUs and 128MB of eDRAM cache). Plus, it's a full-fledged windows computer with a full speed M2 SSD and all the new bells and whistles. $650 + DDR4 memory + SSD. The thing is small and 45W.

Now think of 2 years from now and where that box might be, and consider why Microsoft and Sony would be pursuing updated hardware. AMDs next APUs may compete with consoles quite well.
 
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And? Like tablets/mobile competing powerwise with consoles, it doesn't really change any market dynamics either way. We've seen all this a million times before.

Consoles niche is simplicity, low price, tons of games, good precise controls (where mobile, and even to some extent M+KB, while they overshadow controllers in other areas, fails), 1st party games, living room HDTV, and comfy couch utopia.

Plus they are always the LCD for developers, so no matter how many $ you throw at your PC you will still be essentially tied to the consoles level of graphics (besides FPS/resolution/some minor stuff), meaning in turn consoles will never be left far behind graphically.
 
I can't remember a time where I could buy a cutting-edge full-featured PC that was physically smaller than a console and had a GPU that was roughly equal to a console GPU. In this case GT4e with is something like 1.15 Tflops, vs the Xbox One around 1.3 Tflops. The Quad core i7 in this thing is probably very competitive with the CPU in Xbox One and PS4. Not the same as the higher watt desktop i7s.

We're only in year three of the console generation. In year four Intel could release a Canyon Lake NUC to follow up Skull Canyon. What does that box look like? Can this console generation really last another five years if tiny little pcs like this are coming out this May? Tablets and mobile aren't even close to catching up in terms of performance. Surface Pro may at some point. But little PCs like this could be a big deal.

Skull Canyon is 8.5" x 4.5" x 1.3" and 45W. It does H.265, has USB 3.1, Thunderbolt 3, Dislayport 1.2, HDMI 2.0, dual M2.SSD, can have 32GB of RAM, has the latest bluetooth, wifi, infrared sensor for remote, potential for external gpu upgrade. Basically a beautiful little home theatre PC with console competitive gaming muscle. Sure, it's not as easy to use as a console (except hooking it up which would be about the same and takes up less space), but it does a hell of a lot more.
 
I'm not concerned about this. The game console ecosystem is the only market left that tries to throw the baby out with the bathwater every 5-8 years. Other ecosystems don't and seem to thrive. Hell they become more resilient and promote user retention within the ecosystem. If this works in the clusterfuck fragmented monstrosity that is the Android ecosystem, it can work in the console space.

There are certainly technical and commercial reasons not to want to have progressive hardware upgrades but I'd like to think the technical issues can be resolved with low-level APIs and the commercial reasons are really about new consoles owners having to lose their existing game library and this simply isn't consumer friendly. And I don't think the console industry is blind to this, or thinks that consumers are blind to this.


Apart from a few hardcore forummers nobody gives three bits about backwards compatibility. People don’t buy PS5 or XboxTwo so they can play Fifa 2016, they buy it so they can play Fifa 2019 or whatever.


The Wii sold 100 million units after the rather dismal GC with full BC. The Wii U isn’t selling at all despite having BC with the Wii.


Xbox360 sold well despite having no BC and PS3 flopped despite initially having BC because it was too expensive and didn’t start selling until they ripped out whatever they could to get the price down.


Consumers aren’t asked to throw their old games library out; they just can’t play them on their new device. There is nothing preventing them from playing old games on their existing device.


Yes it’s not the most consumer friendly practices but this is a business that relies on people buying new software, not sticking with their old software on a new box.


The smartphone market has different dynamics than the console market and therefore I don’t think you can really compare the two. If that reasoning applied why wasn’t anyone ever bothered that you can still get Windows 98 or earlier software running on Windows 10 but console games where only playable on the generation of devices they were released on?
 
Apart from a few hardcore forummers nobody gives three bits about backwards compatibility. People don’t buy PS5 or XboxTwo so they can play Fifa 2016, they buy it so they can play Fifa 2019 or whatever.

The poll in this thread disagrees with you. Is the poll representative of all consumers? Who knows. Do you have better data to work with? The reception to Microsoft bringing 360 compatibility to Xbox One seems only positive and wasn't this overwhelming voted by Xbox One owners? Hmmm.

It's an old discussion for sure but I think the way people think about software obsolescence is changing, probably in part brought about everybody having a smart phone where your software works on your new device. I think people are now looking at their console as the odd man out. Opinions and values change.

I wouldn't disagree that the need for backwards compatibility is more important towards the start of each new console hardware cycle because your new console's library is going to be very limited. But this will add a purchasing decision dilemma for many people. People who play multiplayer games with friends are likely going to want t continue playing those games with those friends and it may not be practical (depending on how much other gear you have in your AV centre) or financially viable (if you need sell your current console to buy your new one).

The Wii sold 100 million units after the rather dismal GC with full BC. The Wii U isn’t selling at all despite having BC with the Wii.

Perhaps because it's game library isn't great? New hardware still has to stand on it's own in terms of software justifying that hardware purchase.

Xbox360 sold well despite having no BC and PS3 flopped despite initially having BC because it was too expensive and didn’t start selling until they ripped out whatever they could to get the price down.

Xbox 360 sold well because it was a good solid console and Microsoft did make an effort to make quite a few of the popular games on Xbox compatible. PS3 sold badly initially because it was insanely priced and the early cross-platform games were poor compared to their counterparts on the Xbox 360. There were few compelling reasons to buy a PS3 in the first 12-18 months.

I see don't backward compatibility being a magic pill (its inclusion making a bad console desirable) or a poison pill (its exclusion making a good console undesirable). That's ludicrous.

Yes it’s not the most consumer friendly practices but this is a business that relies on people buying new software, not sticking with their old software on a new box.

People will buy new software, people will want to buy new software that shows off that new hardware.

The smartphone market has different dynamics than the console market and therefore I don’t think you can really compare the two.

And many dynamics are the same. Many people now have smartphones and are now used to a piece of hardware where their old software still works. Other than perceived consumer loyalty lock-in, I think console backwards compatibility was actually less relevant a few generatioms back (PS1 to PS2, PS2 to PS3) because they represented huge leaps in technology. I doubt many original PS owners were playing their original PS games as much once they'd become accustomed to PS2 because the old games look like arse. Ditto PS2 to PS3. We're were getting visually striking new technology. Tech is still getting better but marginally so.

Put PS1 and PS2 games 5m away and you can pick them apart easily. The same with PS2 and PS3. PS3 and PS4? Now that's much harder. If your old games aren't looking so dated, you're more likely to play them and this is probably why so many PC game mods focus on improving visuals for more powerful hardware.

The other thing we have now which we didn't before is connected game communities where you play with other people. If you care about who you play games with, which console to buy and when becomes a lot more complicated. Particularly if you don't have room, or can't afford, to own two console generations at the sometime.
 
Skull Canyon is 8.5" x 4.5" x 1.3" and 45W. It does H.265, has USB 3.1, Thunderbolt 3, Dislayport 1.2, HDMI 2.0, dual M2.SSD, can have 32GB of RAM, has the latest bluetooth, wifi, infrared sensor for remote, potential for external gpu upgrade. Basically a beautiful little home theatre PC with console competitive gaming muscle. Sure, it's not as easy to use as a console (except hooking it up which would be about the same and takes up less space), but it does a hell of a lot more.
I don't think that owning a gaming console is purely a hardware value proposition. For many, the value lies in the appliance nature of the device. Making the XBox reveal more of its inner PC is not necessarily a winning move. Not to mention - the PC market is in decline, and for good reason. Not necessarily the best example to emulate.
That said, the age of Steam-boxes may yet come to pass. When looking at the combined costs of soft- and hardware, they could become more interesting in the future. But even if so, I'm not sure if becoming more PC-like is the right way to be competetive for consoles. Rather, it seems to me that it robs them of their primary redeeming feature.
 
The poll in this thread disagrees with you. Is the poll representative of all consumers?
This poll asks the question: "Do you want to see new and exciting hardware NOW, or do you want to wait until you're old and wrinkly and your hair has fallen off?"

Guess what the answer will be at Beyond3D. :D
 
I'm not sure if that is supposed to be a joke or if you have wilfully misread the questions so the results fit your worldview.

It's the internet.
 
The poll in this thread disagrees with you. Is the poll representative of all consumers? Who knows. Do you have better data to work with?

X360, ps3, wii, wii u, ps4 and X1 sales all show that BC is largely irrelevant. Also those 50 B3D voter's don't exactly represent the average console buyer.

It's an old discussion for sure but I think the way people think about software obsolescence is changing, probably in part brought about everybody having a smart phone where your software works on your new device. I think people are now looking at their console as the odd man out. Opinions and values change.

The majority of these people used to work with Windows. Windows is the master of BC so people definitely are used to not necessarily having to buy new software when they buy a new device/os already. This is nothing new.

I wouldn't disagree that the need for backwards compatibility is more important towards the start of each new console hardware cycle because your new console's library is going to be very limited. But this will add a purchasing decision dilemma for many people. People who play multiplayer games with friends are likely going to want t continue playing those games with those friends and it may not be practical (depending on how much other gear you have in your AV centre) or financially viable (if you need sell your current console to buy your new one).

Lets be realistic for a moment, space isn't a real issue. I live in a 22 square meter apartment with a pc, desk, bed, tv, small sofa, htpc and home cinema set and I could still fit two or three consoles in there without too much problems. The amount of people that don't have space is going to be neglectable. Same goes for people that need to sell their old console to buy a new one.

Xbox 360 sold well because it was a good solid console and Microsoft did make an effort to make quite a few of the popular games on Xbox compatible. PS3 sold badly initially because it was insanely priced and the early cross-platform games were poor compared to their counterparts on the Xbox 360. There were few compelling reasons to buy a PS3 in the first 12-18 months.

I see don't backward compatibility being a magic pill (its inclusion making a bad console desirable) or a poison pill (its exclusion making a good console undesirable). That's ludicrous..

People will buy new software, people will want to buy new software that shows off that new hardware.[\quote]

And people will buy more if new software is the only thing that runs.

Doesn't this kind of prove my point? BC might be nice to have but in now way its going to be a decisive purchasing decision outside of maybe those few early adapters that need to sell their old console to buy a new one and don't have space for a second console.

I doubt many original PS owners were playing their original PS games as much once they'd become accustomed to PS2 because the old games look like arse. Ditto PS2 to PS3. We're were getting visually striking new technology. Tech is still getting better but marginally so.[\quote]

I think this is a matter of time more than anything else. I'm sure when the ps2 just launched psx didn't look that terrible to most people because that is what they were used to. I think the current consoles still represent a pretty big leap over ps360. At least to me, then again I only did pc gaming during the ps360 era and I never could stand those lucky-to-hit 30fps games console games.
 
I'm not sure if that is supposed to be a joke or if you have wilfully misread the questions so the results fit your worldview.

It's the internet.
The poll asks - "Do you Like the idea of shorter console cycles..."
On a hardware enthusiast forum, what is the likely answer? I'm amazed the No option got any votes at all! Can those individuals please be identified by the moderators so that they can be properly tarred and feathered? :D
 
X360, ps3, wii, wii u, ps4 and X1 sales all show that BC is largely irrelevant. Also those 50 B3D voter's don't exactly represent the average console buyer.

No, this is a false equivalency. It demonstrates that the lack of backwards compatibility wasn't enough to deter those sales. If you want a games console and not a PC, you have to lump it even if you don't like it.

The majority of these people used to work with Windows. Windows is the master of BC so people definitely are used to not necessarily having to buy new software when they buy a new device/os already. This is nothing new.

Sorry, are you really trying to argue that most people who buy smartphones and appreciate having the software they bought on their old phone work on their new phone, only hold this view because they used to work with Windows? You don't think that consumers are more value savvy than they've ever been and most people, if they stop to think about it, wonder why their gaming console is the only piece of computer hardware they own where there old software doesn't jus work on their new console? Because, that's nuts. I've never met a person who actively wanted a software purchase they've made not to work on new hardware. Well apart from McAfee Anti-Virus owners. But you missed the essence of this point so I'll say it again. People change. Views change. Slavery used to be norm in much of the world and now it's now. Because it's bad.

Lets be realistic for a moment, space isn't a real issue. I live in a 22 square meter apartment with a pc, desk, bed, tv, small sofa, htpc and home cinema set and I could still fit two or three consoles in there without too much problems. The amount of people that don't have space is going to be neglectable. Same goes for people that need to sell their old console to buy a new one.

So space isn't an issue where and how you live. We can't even squeeze an Xbox One console into our AV centre - not with the other stuff in there also sharing the TV. Could it go on the floor? Sure, should it? Not with a kid and cat and the TV isn't the centre of our lives. We don't want a mound of tech piled up around it. One of the selling points of consoles is that they're relatively compact and can fit discreetly away.

Some people like space, i.e. it's not there just to be filled with stuff. Particularly unnecessary stuff.

The poll asks - "Do you Like the idea of shorter console cycles..."

The poll asks - "Do you like the idea of shorter console cycles and forwards compatibility?".

You know the words are right there. People can see them so pretending it doesn't say that is a bit silly.
 
I'm amazed the No option got any votes at all! Can those individuals please be identified by the moderators so that they can be properly tarred and feathered? :D
In a public poll, you can click the number of votes to see who voted. I'll leave any tarring and feathering to you.
 
is BC more important now digital purchases are starting to take off?
Whilst a digital purchase for the previous console gen are still playable on the old system the fear people have is that it will not be in the future especially with core network infrastructure servers and services decommissioned. With the license officially supported and provided by the new platform then at least ownership of this license could be seen to be more safe and assured, the same issues about required game infrastructure remain but that affects physical copies equally.

Is this a tool to keep customers, attract new ones or simply part of a plan to smooth the transition to digital.
PS Plus and Games with Gold could also start to affect peoples opinion.
 
is BC more important now digital purchases are starting to take off?

Interesting point, I hadn't thought of this. I bought very few games digitally on PS3 and those that I did were mostly smaller or indie titles like Journey. When I come to sell my PS3 console it'll include a library of about 80+ game discs that I will bundle in - this will get a better price. When I come to sell my PS4, my current game library (which is approx 60:40 - digital:disc) will be worth far less because I cant sell those digital games without selling the account. And if I can't play those digital PS4 games on PS5 they're effectively worthless/lost once I sell the console.

Of course it's my choice but as a customer I would feel less bitter if those PS4 digital games did work on PS5. Even if I don't play them, I can if I want and I've not lost anything.
 
The poll asks - "Do you like the idea of shorter console cycles and forwards compatibility?".

You know the words are right there. People can see them so pretending it doesn't say that is a bit silly.
Fercrissakes, I'm pointing out that the keyword in the poll is like. Even Capitalized it.
Of course we would overwhelmingly like both shorter console cycles and forward compatibility on a graphics enthusiast forum. The more interesting questions are "What would be the ramifications of...", or "Would ... make sense in the market?" Which, sensibly, is what we are actually discussing rather than fairly pointless personal likes.
 
Apart from a few hardcore forummers nobody gives three bits about backwards compatibility.

The literally hundreds of millions of phone users care about BC (and FC) for their devices. Literally, hundreds of millions of them. The hundreds of millions of DVD and BR owners care about BC. The hundreds of millions of music owners care about BC and transferring existing music to new devices.

The 100+ million Steam users abso-fucking-lutely care about BC (and FC) and it is the Steam model that everyone is desperate to jump on-board. MS even (now) want to do it with bells and whistles on, in the form of "Universal Apps".

In the digital age, you can't even sell your old games. Times are changing, and expectations are changing along with them. And so they should. Publishers are even working with MS to make some 360 games available to *buy* new from the XBone storefront for use purely on XBone.

If only "a few hardcore forummers" cared then I doubt MS would have gone to the effort of making the single most impressive thing this gen (apart from the technology in the failed Kinect) by making their 360 emulator and constantly expanding the games available for it.
 
Fercrissakes, I'm pointing out that the keyword in the poll is like. Even Capitalized it.
I think you and DSoup are crossing wires.

The "and" is conditional. tongue_of_colicab said...
"Apart from a few hardcore forummers nobody gives three bits about backwards compatibility. People don’t buy PS5 or XboxTwo so they can play Fifa 2016, they buy it so they can play Fifa 2019 or whatever."​
DSoup replied...
"The poll in this thread disagrees with you."​
Referencing the BC aspect. Your response to DSoup missed the aspect of compatiblity. If the poll was "Do you like the idea of shorter console cycles without backwards compatibility?" the response could be very different.

Of course we would overwhelmingly like both shorter console cycles and forward compatibility on a graphics enthusiast forum. The more interesting questions are "What would be the ramifications of...", or "Would ... make sense in the market?" Which, sensibly, is what we are actually discussing rather than fairly pointless personal likes.
There's a whole other thread on that discussion. This poll was started just to see what the local populace thought. This discussion wasn't even supposed to take place here! But hey, if everyone wants to keep rehashing the same old arguments, who am I to intervene? ;)
 
I think you and DSoup are crossing wires.

The "and" is conditional. tongue_of_colicab said...
"Apart from a few hardcore forummers nobody gives three bits about backwards compatibility. People don’t buy PS5 or XboxTwo so they can play Fifa 2016, they buy it so they can play Fifa 2019 or whatever."​
DSoup replied...
"The poll in this thread disagrees with you."​
Referencing the BC aspect. Your response to DSoup missed the aspect of compatiblity. If the poll was "Do you like the idea of shorter console cycles without backwards compatibility?" the response could be very different.

There's a whole other thread on that discussion. This poll was started just to see what the local populace thought. This discussion wasn't even supposed to take place here! But hey, if everyone wants to keep rehashing the same old arguments, who am I to intervene? ;)
Thanks. And my point was that the poll as formulated is useless to base any further arguments on. Enough about that, your top tip looks quite applicable! :D
 
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