The Australian Game Developers Conference

[scificube]

Who's arguing? I thought people asked for an explanation myself.

I don't know why we shouldn't discuss the possibilities out there either. Oh well.

 

[mckmas8808]

The GT4 shot was a photo in the scenery, and Laa-yosh already suggested that as a solution for Motorstorm, though obviously what we're seeing looks a lot more 3D than a 2D photo, and hence Laa-Yosh's scepticism. I don't think looking at a photo backdrop is any indicator of what Motorstorm can or can't do with 3D terrain.

But Shifty it is a PS3 game. Nintendo would be right if the PS3 couldn't produce moutains like the one in the Motorstorm video when they talk about diminishing returns. If the PS2 could create the Grand Canyon mountains, then I expect Motorstorm or any other PS3 game to be able to produce the mountains in the video.

 

[Farid]

I dunno about BS, but to me those hills look doable with reasonable geometry, normal mapping for the bumps, and self-shadowing which should hopefully be part of the engine. A textured line of trees would cover the top simply and effectively. Nothing about it screams impossible to me, so I'd like to hear Laa-Yosh's reservations.

APS plus LOD, I really don't see what those hills particularly have that would make them impossible to include in a fast-paced Arcade Racer.

 

[mckmas8808]

APS plus LOD, I really don't see what those hills particularly have that would make them impossible to include in a fast-paced Arcade Racer.

Thanks Vysez.

Now if I only knew what APS was I would really be happy.

 

[Farid]

Thanks Vysez.

Now if I only knew what APS was I would really be happy.

Appearance Preserving Simplification.

Think like Doom 3, Riddick, MGS4, PD0, GoW models.
You first create a high resolution mesh model, you then get its normals coordinate, stock them on a normal map, and then apply this map on a lower polygon model. The result if done correctly should look extremely close to the original high poly model and cost a lot less from a computational level.

Here's a paper if you want details:
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~geom/APS/

 

[mckmas8808]

Appearance Preserving Simplification.

Think like Doom 3, Riddick, MGS4, PD0, GoW models.
You first create a high resolution mesh model, you then get its normals coordinate, stock them on a normal map, and then apply this map on a lower polygon model. The result if done correctly should look extremely close to the original high poly model and cost a lot less from a computational level.

Here's a paper if you want details:
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~geom/APS/

Big thanks Vysez. For some reason that process sounds like what UE3.0 will be pushing. I thought there was another word for it though. What term do most people call this process? I think most people call this process normal or bump mapping.

 

[jvd]

Big thanks Vysez. For some reason that process sounds like what UE3.0 will be pushing. I thought there was another word for it though. What term do most people call this process? I think most people call this process normal or bump mapping.

If you want to see it in action

http://insider.ign.com/videos/articles/515/515963p1.html

They show you how they took a 100 million polygon backround and made it into a 2 million polygon normal map

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But Shifty it is a PS3 game. Nintendo would be right if the PS3 couldn't produce moutains like the one in the Motorstorm video when they talk about diminishing returns. If the PS2 could create the Grand Canyon mountains, then I expect Motorstorm or any other PS3 game to be able to produce the mountains in the video.

I'm not saying PS3 can't do the mountains. I'm saying looking at PS2 using a photo backdrop and then concluding PS3 can render the whole thing in 3D is flawed logic. PS1 could show a mountain photo backdrop but that didn't mean PS2 could render them in realtime.

I think most people call this process normal or bump mapping.

Yes it's normal mapping.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes it's normal mapping.

So normal mapping also means Appearance Preserving Simplification?

Or normal mapping = A.P.S.?

 

[Farid]

So normal mapping also means Appearance Preserving Simplification?

Or normal mapping = A.P.S.?

Nope. APS does use normal mapping.
But on its own normal mapping doesn't necessarily translate to APS.

Simply put, there's APS when you get a normal map from a high polymesh, and apply it on a low poly model.

You can create a normal map in photoshop, if you apply it to a model, we're not talking about APS, but simply dot3 Bump Mapping.

 

[mckmas8808]

If you want to see it in action

http://insider.ign.com/videos/articles/515/515963p1.html

They show you how they took a 100 million polygon backround and made it into a 2 million polygon normal map

Thanks jvd for the video. This is what I call next-gen. To all IGN insiders you must watch this video. This video is why I love the next-generation.

 

[jvd]

Thanks jvd for the video. This is what I call next-gen. To all IGN insiders you must watch this video. This video is why I love the next-generation.

yea , its cool stuff , I believe that stuff is all from gears of war as it was the furthest unreal engine 3 game in development. ALl this tech is in gears of war. If you watch further up u will see gow monsters in ther e

 

[mckmas8808]

yea , its cool stuff , I believe that stuff is all from gears of war as it was the furthest unreal engine 3 game in development. ALl this tech is in gears of war. If you watch further up u will see gow monsters in ther e

Yeah they said that the monsters were only 7 to 9 thousand polygons. How is that possible? Well I know how it's possible because the video told me how, but will these monsters look worst than the dragons in Lair? Not to say the monsters in Gears of War look bad because they look well, "Unreal".

And I'm only asking because the dragons in Lair were supposed to be over 100,000 polygons, so don't think this is a systems war question.

 

[MrWibble]

So does anyone have any information from the AGDC (such as from the talk mentioned in the first post here and then forgotten)?

All this discussion on rendering background hills is fascinating but...

 

[mckmas8808]

Are you kidding? YOU should be the one giving US informations about AGDC

Why does he live there or something?

 

[BlueTsunami]

Are you kidding? YOU should be the one giving US informations about AGDC

 

[mckmas8808]

No, I don't know where MrWibble lives..but I can assure you he shouldn't be the one asking for informations

Oh well make some phone calls MrWibble. Get the info first hand.

 

[MrWibble]

Oh well make some phone calls MrWibble. Get the info first hand.

I think I've been confused with someone else.

I didn't go, and no-one who works here did either...

 

[jvd]

Yeah they said that the monsters were only 7 to 9 thousand polygons. How is that possible? Well I know how it's possible because the video told me how, but will these monsters look worst than the dragons in Lair? Not to say the monsters in Gears of War look bad because they look well, "Unreal".

And I'm only asking because the dragons in Lair were supposed to be over 100,000 polygons, so don't think this is a systems war question.

'

The whole point of normal maps is to reduce polygon load . We've seen video of thse gow characters moving and interacting and they look damn good. I never played lair so i can't comment. But normal maps are the future . They allow a much bigger leap in visual quality than polygons alone can do .

Not to mention that on later games for both systems polygon counts will continue to rise as will the quality of normal maps .

 

[Titanio]

They allow a much bigger leap in visual quality than polygons alone can do . .

Not really. Normal Maps simply present the illusion of more geometry. If you had at your disposal enough polys to model with, you wouldn't need normal maps and other such tricks. Indeed, having the actual geometry there if you were able to would be more desireable, I think.

Of course, we often don't have the capability often to throw around as many polys as we'd like, or perhaps as cheaply as something like normal mapping can appear to, hence its valuable role.