Strongest Army in the world?

Deepak said:
What if it can launch IRCM....Intermediate Range Cruise Missile....Russia has such Air to Surface Cruise missiles (I dont remember names...)...so it doesnt need to come anywhere near the AEGIS cruiser...

I was talking about dogfighting. Even the best plane in the world can't dodge the "intelligence" of current long range missiles, so why do you think a UCAV is any different? A UCAV is just a long raise cruise missile (it's speed and manuerability) that can reusable (since it can fire its own missiles) and can be piloted remotely.

So if an Su30 can't "dogfight" a Phoenix launched by an F-14 or an SM-2 from AEGIS, what makes you think it can "dogfight" a UCAV?

If you're still having trouble with this concept, let me try another way: I have just recategorized the Phoenix missile as a UCAV. It's unmanned right? It's an aerial vehicle right? Seems to fit the UCAV acronym. If I put a remote control with video camera on it so it can be steered by a human pilot, what's the difference? Now let's swap out the solid rocket fuel and give it a reusable ramjet. Now let's get rid of the warhead and add in a missile rack so that Phoenix can launch AMRAAM.

Are you going to claim that all of a sudden the Su30 can dogfight this just because its a UCAV?


[]
 
But the kind of UCAVs (re-usable/missile firing) you are visualising (who can beat Su30) are still years away (atleast 20 IMO)...
 
Deepak said:
But the kind of UCAVs (re-usable/missile firing) you are visualising (who can beat Su30) are still years away (atleast 20 IMO)...

Based on what evidence?

Actually, UCAVs are already here now. They're the reason why the US hasn't bought scores of F-22's to replace our F-15's. Bush intends, and has said this publicly, to skip the F-22 generation and go directly to UCAVs. That's what he's referring to when he says "skip a generation of military technology". We'll see at most just a few more F-22's produced, and then UCAV's will start entering service. This will happen within the next 5 to 10 years, not 20 years.
 
Deepak said:
But the kind of UCAVs (re-usable/missile firing) you are visualising (who can beat Su30) are still years away (atleast 20 IMO)...

No their not, did you not read my post? I hate it when people post conflicting stuff to a post as fact...

Do some research on Ryan BQM-34F's and their use as aggressors in the Navy's Top Gun program starting in 1971. They upgraded the basis Firebee UAV with a system called MASTACS to increase maneuverability and then sen them up against F-14 and laer F-15, F-16 teams.

From Bill Wagner's book, Fireflies and other Reconnaisance Drones:

The weapons school at NAS Miramar in San Diego was greatly interested in the potential of he elusive bird. Consequently, a graduation excersise was schedualed for May 10 at Pt. Mugu, Cdr John C. Smith, commanding officer of the Top Gun school, elected to ride as RADAR operator and chief tactcian as he and three other combat veterans from Vietnam scrambled in F-4 Phantom fighters from Miramar. Both planes were equipt with mixed loads of Sidewinder infired and Sparrow RADAR-guided missiles.

What developed was a no-holds-barred contest. Cmdr John Pitzen, Top Gun combat instructor, was tactical director for the Firebee, and instructed TRA's AL Donaldson, who manned the remote control station. In effect, they were in the cockpit of the target, and after the stage was set for a head-on approach, the Firebee proved to be an extremely elusive aggressor. Open-circuit radio chatter told of the manned aircrafts difficulties. Smith called, "Tally-ho, off the left wing" but the drone was able to pull such a high-G turn that he F-4 couldn't follow the maneuver. Smith was learning the hardway that Donaldson and Pitzen could rack the Firebee into a 100deg bank and make a 180deg reversal turn in only 12 seconds, permitting the drone to get behind the now vulnerable F-4.


Right there the UCAV scored 2 kills, and the book mentions that one BQM-34F nicknamed "Old Red" that won 82 strait dogfights against F-15/F-16 teams. And the Firebee wasn't designed to push preformance bounderies.

Programs like HiMAT of the '70s could probobly destroy any craft in AA combat, something like the X-36 wouldn't even make it a contest. 20 years away? Try 20 years ago...
 
Deepak said:
DemoCoder said:
You will never see the UCAV before it's too late. You do realize that Boeing is talking about radar cross section figures for it's Bird of Prey that are smaller than a Mosquito Visually, the painting and outline of the Bird would be very hard for a human pilot to see at normal fighting distance too.

By the time that happens we may see new techs to track even stealth (radar-coated) weapons....I am sure nations are trying in that direction...

Stealth has always been visible to some avionics technologies. The British avionic systems have been able to track and fire upon Stealth since day one. But the only people who have access to it are the US and the British.

Their are several urban legends on the matter. 1 story tells of the first time the Stealth prototype was flown near Scotland. It accidently crossed into British airspace but as it was totally secret, clearance wasn't asked for. The main radar research base (which is in the north of Scotlands) picked it up and a polite letter was sent to US, asking them to be careful about crossing into British airspace (because of accidents etc). The US replied no such violation of airspace happened (this thing was totally top secret) until finally a high British official met a high US official and showed the radar trace, which had been produced by experimental ID radar (able to identify a plane via its radar signature) showing a totally new unknown plane crossing in British air space.
Another story tells of much later after Stealth was publically being shown at airshows etc, At this airshow BAF was also demostrating its latest surface to air missle system, a US general walked by and noticed the Brits were tracking (and had a lock on ) a plane, when he asked what they were tracking, they told him a Stealth. He didn't believe them until he had a close look and it was clear they could have fired (if it had been loaded) at any time.

You can tell how advanced US military technology is beyond most countries, by seeing how rarely they buy other technology. IIRC They've done it twice in recent times (The British Harrier and Israeli Drone tech). The US don't buy other countries tech as theirs is much better.
 
John Reynolds said:
UCAVs are most definitely here.

Yes they are there....but not in that form that they can defeat Su30 or they can replace F22....they are being used mostly for survillience work....
 
Deepak said:
Yes they are there....but not in that form that they can defeat Su30 or they can replace F22....they are being used mostly for survillience work....

Vince's point, and Demo's, and mine is that they are here, and in a form that can consistently defeat any piloted aircraft in the world, including the Su-37, and will replace the F-22. Expect to see them enter service within the next 10 years, barring political interference, about the same time frame that the Berkut will enter service.
 
fbg1 said:
Deepak said:
Yes they are there....but not in that form that they can defeat Su30 or they can replace F22....they are being used mostly for survillience work....

Vince's point, and Demo's, and mine is that they are here, and in a form that can consistently defeat any piloted aircraft in the world, including the Su-37, and will replace the F-22.

I don't think he acknowledges me; nor the fact that '70s technology utilized in a UCAV role can defeat multiple F-16s or F-15s teamed against it.

As for this:

By the time such a UCAV is available (may be 20 yrs lator),,,,Su30 would have been replaced by new generation fighters (S37-Berkut/Mig PAK-FA) which will use stealth....

I think the problem is that he's part of the evolutionary pool of thinking that sees UCAVs as a natural extention of the manned fighter (eg. Remove cockpit from current paradigm) and not the revolutionary pool whose logic is symmetric with what Democoder stated (eg. a reuasable TLAM).

For example: The UCAV concept I saw proposed by Lockheed-Martin and DARPA was a pure wing with underslung intakes. Upon launch, it closed it's wheel wells and inverted itself to mask any seams and the intakes, thus as a result it pocessed a RCS that would make the Raptor or even DarkStar look like a 747. Not to mention, it would have the agility of the X-36 and probably pull 25G+ turns... the sheer upperbound of human physiology would make this feat a LSD-induced dream and nothing more for a manned craft.

And even if (eg. totally implausible, but for argument sake) a manned craft could compete on an equal preformance plane - a UCAV is attritionable, a supply of pilots is not.
 
DeanoC, I think that story has about as much validity as the other Urban Legend where the B-2's RAM is ineffective when it comes into contact with water...

Although, there is no question that with the resources anyone can defeat current Stealth - for this has been the same cyclical pattern of attacker over defender over attacker since man first picked up a stone.

Hell, give me over a hundred billion dollars and I'll nail a stealth with a phased RADAR system thats networked together. Even the B2 reflects a significant amount of EM radiation (or they could use FM/TV signals instead of specilized emitters) that can be collected and reassembled into a target by a centralized computer. Although this won't stop the $25M in Tomahawks that disable the entire system in the first 10 minutes of hostility. ;)
 
Here's a NYT article I came across recently discussing this very subject. There are a couple points in it I think are incorrect, but overall it paints a clear picture of American military superiority. Its basic argument is that no convential military can match that of the US, therefore nukes and WMDs are the only realistic deterrent for nations such as NK and Iran.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0F15FB3E590C748EDDAD0894DB404482

April 27, 2003, Sunday

The World: Out on the Edge; American Power Moves Beyond the Mere Super

By GREGG EASTERBROOK (NYT) 1630 words

STEALTH drones, G.P.S.-guided smart munitions that hit precisely where aimed; antitank bombs that guide themselves; space-relayed data links that allow individual squad leaders to know exactly where American and opposition forces are during battle -- the United States military rolled out all this advanced technology, and more, in its lightning conquest of Iraq. No other military is even close to the United States. The American military is now the strongest the world has ever known, both in absolute terms and relative to other nations; stronger than the Wehrmacht in 1940, stronger than the legions at the height of Roman power. For years to come, no other nation is likely even to try to rival American might.

Which means: the global arms race is over, with the United States the undisputed heavyweight champion. Other nations are not even trying to match American armed force, because they are so far behind they have no chance of catching up. The great-powers arms race, in progress for centuries, has ended with the rest of the world conceding triumph to the United States.

Now only a nuclear state, like, perhaps, North Korea, has any military leverage against the winner.

Paradoxically, the runaway American victory in the conventional arms race might inspire a new round of proliferation of atomic weapons. With no hope of matching the United States plane for plane, more countries may seek atomic weapons to gain deterrence.

North Korea might have been moved last week to declare that it has an atomic bomb by the knowledge that it has no hope of resisting American conventional power. If it becomes generally believed that possession of even a few nuclear munitions is enough to render North Korea immune from American military force, other nations -- Iran is an obvious next candidate -- may place renewed emphasis on building them.

For the extent of American military superiority has become almost impossible to overstate. The United States sent five of its nine supercarrier battle groups to the region for the Iraq assault. A tenth Nimitz-class supercarrier is under construction. No other nation possesses so much as one supercarrier, let alone nine battle groups ringed by cruisers and guarded by nuclear submarines.

Russia has one modern aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, but it has about half the tonnage of an American supercarrier, and has such a poor record that it rarely leaves port. The former Soviet navy did preliminary work on a supercarrier, but abandoned the project in 1992. Britain and France have a few small aircraft carriers. China decided against building one last year.

Any attempt to build a fleet that threatens the Pentagon's would be pointless, after all, because if another nation fielded a threatening vessel, American attack submarines would simply sink it in the first five minutes of any conflict. (The new Seawolf-class nuclear-powered submarine is essentially the futuristic supersub of ''The Hunt for Red October'' made real.) Knowing this, all other nations have conceded the seas to the United States, a reason American forces can sail anywhere without interference. The naval arms race -- a principal aspect of great-power politics for centuries -- is over.

United States air power is undisputed as well, with more advanced fighters and bombers than those of all other nations combined. The United States possesses three stealth aircraft (the B-1 and B-2 bombers and the F-117 fighter) with two more (the F-22 and F-35 fighters) developed and awaiting production funds. No other nation even has a stealth aircraft on the drawing board. A few nations have small numbers of heavy bombers; the United States has entire wings of heavy bombers.

No other nation maintains an aerial tanker fleet similar to that of the United States; owing to tankers, American bombers can operate anywhere in the world. No other nation has anything like the American AWACS plane, which provides exceptionally detailed radar images of the sky above battles, or the newer JSTARS plane, which provides exceptionally detailed radar images of the ground.

No other nation has air-to-air missiles or air-to-ground smart munitions of the accuracy, or numbers, of the United States. This month, for example, in the second attempt to kill Saddam Hussein, just 12 minutes passed between when a B-1 received the target coordinates and when the bomber released four smart bombs aimed to land just 50 feet and a few seconds apart. All four hit where they were supposed to.

American aerial might is so great that adversaries don't even try to fly. Serbia kept its planes on the ground during the Kosovo conflict of 1999; in recent fighting in Iraq, not a single Iraqi fighter rose to oppose United States aircraft. The governments of the world now know that if they try to launch a fighter against American air power, their planes will be blown to smithereens before they finish retracting their landing gear. The aerial arms race, a central facet of the last 50 years, is over.

The American lead in ground forces is not uncontested -- China has a large standing army -- but is large enough that the ground arms race might end, too. The United States now possesses about 9,000 M1 Abrams tanks, by far the world's strongest armored force. The Abrams cannon and fire-control system is so extraordinarily accurate that in combat gunners rarely require more than one shot to destroy an enemy tank. No other nation is currently building or planning a comparable tank force. Other governments know this would be pointless, since even if they had advanced tanks, the United States would destroy them from the air.

The American lead in electronics is also huge. Much of the ''designating'' of targets in the recent Iraq assault was done by advanced electronics on drones like the Global Hawk, which flies at 60,000 feet, far beyond the range of antiaircraft weapons. So sophisticated are the sensors and data links that make Global Hawk work that it might take a decade for another nation to field a similar drone -- and by then, the United States is likely to have leapfrogged ahead to something better.

As The New York Times Magazine reported last Sunday, the United States is working on unmanned, remote-piloted drone fighter planes that will be both relatively low-cost and extremely hard to shoot down, and small drone attack helicopters that will precede troops into battle. No other nation is even close to the electronics and data-management technology of these prospective weapons. The Pentagon will have a monopoly on advanced combat drones for years.

An electronics arms race may continue in some fashion because electronics are cheaper than ships or planes. But the United States holds such an imposing lead that it is unlikely to be lapped for a long time.

Further, the United States holds an overwhelming lead in military use of space. Not only does the Pentagon command more and better reconnaissance satellites than all the rest of the world combined, American forces have begun using space-relayed data in a significant way. Space ''assets'' will eventually be understood to have been critical to the lightning conquest of Iraq, and the American lead in this will only grow, since the Air Force now has the second-largest space budget in the world, after NASA's.

This huge military lead is partly because of money. Last year American military spending exceeded that of all other NATO states, Russia, China, Japan, Iraq and North Korea combined, according to the Center for Defense Information, a nonpartisan research group that studies global security. This is another area where all other nations must concede to the United States, for no other government can afford to try to catch up.

The runaway advantage has been called by some excessive, yet it yields a positive benefit. Annual global military spending, stated in current dollars, peaked in 1985, at $1.3 trillion, and has been declining since, to $840 billion in 2002. That's a drop of almost half a trillion dollars in the amount the world spent each year on arms. Other nations accept that the arms race is over.

The United States military reinforces its pre-eminence by going into combat. Rightly or wrongly, the United States fights often; each fight becomes a learning opportunity for troops and a test of technology. No other military currently has the real-world experience of the United States.

There is also the high quality -- in education and motivation -- of its personnel. This lead has grown as the United States has integrated women into most combat roles, doubling the talent base on which recruiters can draw.

The American edge does not render its forces invincible: the expensive Apache attack helicopter, for example, fared poorly against routine small-arms fire in Iraq. More important, overwhelming power hardly insures that the United States will get its way in world affairs. Force is just one aspect of international relations, while experience has shown that military power can solve only military problems, not political ones.

North Korea now stares into the barrel of the strongest military ever assembled, and yet may be able to defy the United States, owing to nuclear deterrence. As the global arms race ends with the United States so far ahead no other nation even tries to be America's rival, the result may be a world in which Washington has historically unparalleled power, but often cannot use it.
 
Vince said:
fbg1 said:
Deepak said:
Yes they are there....but not in that form that they can defeat Su30 or they can replace F22....they are being used mostly for survillience work....

Vince's point, and Demo's, and mine is that they are here, and in a form that can consistently defeat any piloted aircraft in the world, including the Su-37, and will replace the F-22.

I don't think he acknowledges me; nor the fact that '70s technology utilized in a UCAV role can defeat multiple F-16s or F-15s teamed against it.

Vince the kind of UCAVs you are talking about will be available in future....maybe 20 yrs later.....but currently there are no such UCAVs are available which can even come close to Su30.....what we right now have are drones/RPVs/UAVs like Global Hawk/Predator etc which have no air ot air combat capabilities....
 
Deepak said:
Vince the kind of UCAVs you are talking about will be available in future....maybe 20 yrs later.....but currently there are no such UCAVs are available which can even come close to Su30.....what we right now have are drones/RPVs/UAVs like Global Hawk/Predator etc which have no air ot air combat capabilities....

I feel like I'm talking to the wall. Perhaps if you'd reread my prior posts and do some background research on the Agressor roles assumed by UCAVs since the 1970s - you'd see just how feasible and just what a UCAV can do to your SU-30.
 
You are not getting my point....if UCAVs are so capable then why does US still use F-14/15/16/18 etc....why dont we see them in combat roles???

Yes! US has many project to produce combat capable UCAVs but I dont see them replacing likes of F22/JSF/Su37/S37 etc in near future!!!

I feel like I'm talking to the wall. Perhaps if you'd reread my prior posts and do some background research on the Agressor roles assumed by UCAVs since the 1970s - you'd see just how feasible and just what a UCAV can do to your SU-30.

Can I ask you to name these UCAVs which can tame Su30s??? Most advanced UCAV in the world is Predator which can fire Hell-fire anti tank missiles...thats all....nothing more...
 
Deepak, you're right insofar as there are no air-to-air combat capable UCAVs in service right now. But, the technology is proven, it works, there is little development left to do on them, and the US government and military are in the process of fielding them. It will not be 20 years as you say before they enter service, but within 10 years, at least if Bush & Rumsfeld get their way. Don't be surprised if the F-22 is replaced by UCAVs before it even fully enters service.
 
fbg1 said:
Deepak, you're right insofar as there are no air-to-air combat capable UCAVs in service right now. But, the technology is proven, it works, there is little development left to do on them, and the US government and military are in the process of fielding them. It will not be 20 years as you say before they enter service, but within 10 years, at least if Bush & Rumsfeld get their way. Don't be surprised if the F-22 is replaced by UCAVs before it even fully enters service.

Can you give me any links for these UCAVs???

btw this UCAV able to replace F22 is, well! :LOL: ......there are no parallel UCAV programs to replace F22....US has spent Billions in F22 project, and any UCAV replacing it is pure nonsense...

and the fact is the UCAV tech is still not proven.....today only I read somewhere (I am trying to remember/I ll try to post that link)....that Predator's attritions rate is unacceptably high....!
 
Deepak said:
Can you give me any links for these UCAVs???

Here's the link (that I posted twice before in this thread):

http://www.discover.com/aug_02/featflying.html

General technology verification, from the article:

In 1999 a Global Hawk became the first computer-operated unmanned plane to fly itself across the Pacific, 23 hours to Australia, where it "landed itself dead on the center line," says Guidry.

"When you start it (Global Hawk) up," he says, "the airplane runs a check of all its systems, just the way a pilot would do. You download the mission plan via computer. You say, 'We want you to image Kandahar and Tora Bora.' " Then, inside a windowless camouflaged control trailer, all Guidry has to do is "click the takeoff button" with a computer mouse, "and off it goes."

The biggest surprise about the Global Hawk is that it contains no surprises at all. Its technology is "off the shelf," says Guidry. It simply combines the pre-existing technology of drones with the technology of existing autopilots. Radio-controlled pilotless drones have been used as target practice at least since the 1940s, and three-axis (pitch, yaw, roll) autopilots were first placed on commercial aircraft more than 60 years ago.

Now, for the UCAV specifically:

Elsewhere on Edwards Air Force Base, hidden from public view, stands an aircraft that promises to find the edge of the envelope and rip it open— the X-45A (X for experimental). It is also known as the Air Force UCAV, for Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle. The X-45A completed high-speed autonomous taxi tests in April (2002) and successfully completed its first test flight in May (2002).

Self-flying, self-planning, pack-hunting UCAVs, expected to be operational by 2008, will deploy as the first wave against enemy air defenses when conditions are too risky for piloted planes. Eventually, engineers hope to build dogfighting UCAVs

2008 is 5 years away. Expect to see dogfighting UCAVs by 2013, 10 years away, as I have consistently said. Actually, dogfigting UCAVs may be redundant anyway, as US aerial combat strategy is currently based on BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagement. All that is really needed is a fleet of stealth UCAVs armed with long range Air-to-Air missiles and targeted by JSTARS to knock out any opposing air superiority fighters (like the Berkut).

From the US Air Force:

http://www.edwards.af.mil/articles98/docs_html/splash/may98/cover/ucavs.htm

By 2005, UCAVs can be weaponized using existing weapon systems and the addition of "hypervelocity kinetic energy penetrators," a specific family of warheads.

Weaponizing UCAVs with Air-to-air missiles is not a far cry from weaponizing them with smart air-to-ground ordinance, especially when JSTARS will be doing their target acquisition and guidance for them.

http://www.edwards.af.mil/archive/2003/2003-archive-x45_support.html

The support is not only allowing the joint Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency and Air Force program to meet its aggressive flight demonstration schedule, but also helping to pave the way for future operational UCAVs.

The UCAV program is focused on rapidly fielding a weapon system that integrates distributed adaptive control technology and robust communications with a next generation unmanned stealth platform.

http://www.edwards.af.mil/archive/2002/2002-archive-ucav_unveiled.html

As testing progresses with the X-45A, the designers are working on a "B-model," which will incorporate lessons learned from testing the present models. Expected to arrive sometime in 2004, the X-45B will be built as close to the operational aircraft as possible. It will be similar to the A-model, but will be larger, with a length of 32 feet and a wingspan of 47 feet, compared to the 26-foot-long X-45A. The B-model is also expected to carry up to 2,000 pounds of munitions and fly at 40,000 feet.

The ground controllers will have greater control over the aircraft during flight testing, but basically the X45-B aircraft demonstrator systems will be very close to what's intended for operational use.
...
According to Boeing, the UCAVs are projected to cost up to 65 percent less to produce than future manned fighters, and 75 percent less to operate and maintain than current operational systems.

They're cheap, highly capable, and coming soon.

More links discussing Bush & Rumsfeld's proposal to skip a generation of military technology:

http://www.cato.org/dailys/02-13-01.html

The troubled and expensive F-22 ($180 million per copy), designed mainly to battle advanced Soviet aircraft that were never built, is a prime candidate for cancellation before it goes into limited production.

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw010103_2_n.shtml

"The Pentagon is used to bamboozling the administration with reams of data to get their way," said a senior official who requested anonymity. "With Cheney and [incoming Secretary of State and former US DoD Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin] Powell, who both know how the Pentagon works, the military will find it much harder to push through questionable programmes."

US tactical aircraft (TACAIR) acquisition, which includes the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-22 and JSF, will come under heavy scrutiny, Congressional sources said.

"The F-22 is going to get another look and the size of the buy will be subject to discussion" a congressional staff member said. "Cost growth is still an issue. It's not yet under control."
...
The consensus among experts is that the new administration will almost certainly kill the JSF programme and reduce the number of F-22s, which is bad news for companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman and Pratt & Whitney.

"It makes more sense to go after the F-22 and F-18 but politically they are so far along it would be hard to stop them" said Isaacs. "The JSF is more vulnerable for the wrong reasons. The F-22 and F-18 are extraordinarily expensive and provide capability that isn't needed."

And if you read through this link at the Department of Defense, you'll see that only 295 F-22's are planned for production through 2008. That's not alot considering the F-15 fleet numbers in the thousands. And at $100 million per plane, they're not cheap.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug2001/t08162001_t815aldr.html

So the total number of aircraft in the program plan -- and it's just a plan at this point -- is 331 aircraft in the Air Force estimate. But with this new revised estimate, it's 295. So the CAIG -- we've taken what the CAIG believes they can build at the Air Force estimate of cost.

Remember, 2008 is when the first UCAVs should enter service. UCAVs are cheaper, more capable, and don't put human pilots at risk. There will be serious pressure by then to end the F-22 production and shift those funds to replacement UCAV development. Like I said, barring political interference, expect UCAVs to replace F-22s within 10 years.

Here's a more recent DoD interview in which the F-22 estimate is down to 276:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2003/t02032003_t0131bud.html

There's a $43 billion cap that Congress imposed on the F-22. Within that cap we are moving funds, the Air Force has felt it had to move funds back into research and development from the procurement account in order to deal with some of the outstanding development issues.

The current estimate for the total aircraft buy is 276.

Additionally, the F-15 is scheduled to stay in service till 2015, has a perfect combat record, and is considered completely mission capable against current and foreseeable threats. F-15 service overlaps with UCAV deployment, so why even bother with spending billions on the F-22 when it's not even needed, and will shortly be replaced by UCAVs anyway? That's Bush & Rumsfeld's reasoning.

To sum all this up, I've built the case that UCAV + current missile technology + battlespace management technology gives UCAVs the ability to counter any aerial threat in the foreseeable future, including Russian superfighters. The technology is here, only the political will is the barrier, and Bush & Rumsfeld may have that will. The F-22 is in very limited production and there will only be about 300 of them by 2008. The F-15 is completely mission capable till 2015, by which time the UCAV will be ready to replace it, at much less cost, and much higher capability than the F-22. All roads lead to the conclusion that UCAVs are not 20 or more years away as you claim, but will likely enter service and replace both the F-15 and F-22 within 10 years, or 15 at the most. Their price/performance is simply in a different league than manned aircraft.

PS - when I say UCAV's will replace F-22's, I don't mean that already built F-22's will be scrapped. I'm just saying that F-22 production will be discontinued in favor UCAV production.
 
We may see less capable UCAVs in near future but I dont believe that they can really compete against manned fighter planes....the tech is not reached at that level...!

Only future holds answers to these questions!!!!
 
Deepak said:
the tech is not reached at that level...!

As of now, it's close enough that the primary barrier is not technological, but congressional. Congress is notorious for funding military programs not for their intrinsic merit but b/c they are in the home state of a powerful Senator or Representative.

Only future holds answers to these questions!!!!

Yes, time will tell, but the writing is on the wall. Hopefully by then, India and the US will have closer relations. I think US outsourcing of software development to India will go a long way toward that end, as long as the Indian govt. doesn't nationalize the software industry!
 
fbg1 said:
Deepak said:
the tech is not reached at that level...!

As of now, it's close enough that the primary barrier is not technological, but congressional. Congress is notorious for funding military programs not for their intrinsic merit but b/c they are in the home state of a powerful Senator or Representative.

Only future holds answers to these questions!!!!

Yes, time will tell, but the writing is on the wall. Hopefully by then, India and the US will have closer relations. I think US outsourcing of software development to India will go a long way toward that end, as long as the Indian govt. doesn't nationalize the software industry!

Natioalisation of Software Industry has 0 chance.....infact in coming years you will see more & more privatisation....infact we have opened our defense sector also....we need privatisation in Railway sector....

btw I always think if globlisation is the cure for poverty in India.....how can be minimise poverty if not eradicate it???

back to the UCAVs thing....if UCAVs are so useful/if the tech is available/if they can defeat F22/Su30s/if they are cheap....then why manned fighter projects are still being persued all over the world???

US-F22/F35(JSF)
Europe-Eurofighter/Typhoon
France-Rafale
UK-???
Russia-S37-Berkut/Mig PAK-FA
China-J-12??
India-LCA/MCA
others-???
 
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