Star Citizen, Roberts Space Industries - Chris Roberts' life support and retirement fund [2012-]

[Otto Dafe]

It's a long way from "novel feature" to "technical miracle" and "things that no one believed that it would be possible". Your list runs the gamut from mundane implementation trivia all the way to features that would be really impressive to see realized in a game, but I don't know any competent software developer that would say any of that stuff couldn't be done. Just because something hasn't been done it doesn't mean that people thought it couldn't be done, it may just mean they didn't want or need to do it.

 

[Jupiter]

Ex employees and Star Citizen critics said and still say it can't be done. No publisher (except for RockStar) would develop such a complex simulaton game because it is too costly, too complicated and too time-consuming. So you'll only see such a expansive simulation/game because of CIG and it's backers.

 

[Otto Dafe]

Ex employees and Star Citizen critics said and still say it can't be done. No publisher (except for RockStar) would develop such a complex simulaton game because it is too costly, too complicated and too time-consuming. So you'll only see such a expansive simulation/game because of CIG and it's backers.

Oh, for sure, and it will be a miracle if they pull the game off as imagined, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way at all. The distinction is that none of those features you listed are making me scratch my head and wonder how they did it; For example, refactoring code to a different precision is not amazing (it is tedious and time consuming). Or, as Roderic was saying, rotating spheres in 3d is hardly a technical achievement. I will say that if the game is completed as advertised and works well it will be a hell of an achievement, and worthy of some grandiose description. In other words, all the features and systems in aggregate , the breadth and depth of it, it would absolutely be a technical marvel.

But that hasn't happened yet, and yeah, a lot of people have said they can't pull it off. I don't know if they can, but one thing you should understand about people who work in software is that we are not generally impressed by colossally ambitious projects, usually because of bitter personal and/or professional disappointments. It's way too easy to end up out on a limb with no time, no money, and a bunch of half done work that is as good as nothing. It causes you to develop healthy skepticism about projects, and a healthy uncertainty about how much a bunch of programmers can actually accomplish in a given time.

There is a seminal book in software engineering you might enjoy called The Mythical Man-Month. It's all about exactly these kinds of things, how difficult it is to manage software projects and how horribly wrong it can go. I think it might give you new insights into CIG's project and decisions, which you already know volumes about, as well as perhaps new sympathy for their harsher critics. Not to say that those critics are necessarily right, but you might see where they're coming from.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Rotating a planet is trivial.

Very easy indeed; you just need to change the gravitational constant of the universe.

 

[eastmen]

By far the worst thing CIG could do whatever would be a half-baked version of Star Citizen prematurely posting as Final 1.0 only to give peace for the players and critics. That would be publisher tactics. And that is what we don't want from CIG.

CIG should release Squadron 42 once that is polished. Then they should continue to work on Star Citizen until it actually includes all those features. A lot of features, which are in many cases for the first time ever technically possible in a video game.

Years ago Roberts described that real rotating planets (not that fake thing that other games do) as a technically extremely challenging thing. And now there doing it. The reason why it comes it that CIG seems to found a way to cope with these extreme challenge. And that is what makes Star Citizen later a greater game as a whole idea.

That they are no longer satisfied with "That's impossible" dogmen, but questioned. They tear down supposedly insurmountable walls and doing technical miracles, of which even real engine devs previously thought they would be absolutely impossible to implement in any engine.

There is a good saying


CIG is doing revolutionary pioneering work inside the code. Many people will see what that means for the future of gaming worlds in the next decades. CIG developed not only their own thing. They are a pioneer and guide for technology that makes game worlds much more credible and real.

As for Engine Development, Software Engineering, and all the "boring" backbone stuff. CIG is not only at the forefront. They have repeatedly broken new ground, repeatedly done things that no one believed that it would be possible at all. That means also that the CIG developers now have arrived the stage where they have to evaluate the whole implications of this "it can be done!" and then determine "When A works, then takes B should also work"

So you think it be worse to finish the game and release it than to keep pushing it back year after year ? Funding is down this year. How long do you think they can keep rewritingsystems over and over again before people stop pledging and the money runs out ?

 

[Jupiter]

Oh, for sure, and it will be a miracle if they pull the game off as imagined, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way at all. The distinction is that none of those features you listed are making me scratch my head and wonder how they did it; For example, refactoring code to a different precision is not amazing (it is tedious and time consuming). Or, as Roderic was saying, rotating spheres in 3d is hardly a technical achievement. I will say that if the game is completed as advertised and works well it will be a hell of an achievement, and worthy of some grandiose description. In other words, all the features and systems in aggregate , the breadth and depth of it, it would absolutely be a technical marvel.

But that hasn't happened yet, and yeah, a lot of people have said they can't pull it off. I don't know if they can, but one thing you should understand about people who work in software is that we are not generally impressed by colossally ambitious projects, usually because of bitter personal and/or professional disappointments. It's way too easy to end up out on a limb with no time, no money, and a bunch of half done work that is as good as nothing. It causes you to develop healthy skepticism about projects, and a healthy uncertainty about how much a bunch of programmers can actually accomplish in a given time.

There is a seminal book in software engineering you might enjoy called The Mythical Man-Month. It's all about exactly these kinds of things, how difficult it is to manage software projects and how horribly wrong it can go. I think it might give you new insights into CIG's project and decisions, which you already know volumes about, as well as perhaps new sympathy for their harsher critics. Not to say that those critics are necessarily right, but you might see where they're coming from.

With the view you'll not see an impressive feature in a game anymore. Almost all appearing AAA games are more or less the same as a decade ago. Just with better graphics.

I do not think it is easy to do all this with a solar system large scale in a detailed first person game with a lot of simulations and hundreds of players in the same instance. While the planet rotates also elements in space will move. Local weather on a planet can be seen from space while other players see it on the surface itself. Major events in space can be seen by a player from a planets surface in real time. Large realtime explosions can throw light and shadow on the planet's surface. In realtime. While other games fake everything. In titles like Alien Isolation even elevators are faked. They are no functioning units. If you control the camera by mods you see that the character does not even have an upper body. And all what the players can see out of the window is only a backdrop. Everything which can not be seen from the window does not exists.


I understand the criticism. But now they exceeded the biggest hurdles. It will only get better from now.

How they will solve the network stuff remains as the biggest technical challenge in my opinion. But as I see it, another space game already managed this.

As far as I see CIG is planning since a year to use a similar method.


Because grabby Hands

[In 3.0 demo, they picked up a crate, can you pick up any 'there's a mouse on the table, can I pick it up? can you pick up any object?] You want to come up and pick up a mouse, and the mouse could be at any angle. How do you pick it up and grab it? They had a system, Grabby Hands, they worked and polished for a while. They were faking it where you do a little 'swipe' that as you swiped it would attach and blend into the hand. Could walk around, set it down on a box, then pick up the box, etc...

• 2.0 version of that is a looting system. It's got more defined metrics. Before, if you picked up a pistol, there was a little animation that'd fake getting it into your hand correctly. With the new looting system, you have one handed and two handed pickups, where you can come in and pick up an object of a certain size. There's some fudging, but they want to stay within the metrics for it all. There's right handed and left handed, there's things for holding a datapad in your hand, which is different from grabbing a coffee or whatnot. They've already established lots of metrics for useables in the universe; consoles, doors, railings, etc... but they're also starting to get into the realm of metric'd props that you pick up and carry around. After CitCon, Bryan is now the metric guru, he'll be going through and grabbing objects, saying every object within a certain class, he'll put it in hands, they'll make stuff look good, and they'll create a node inside the object so every object, when you pick it up, it'll have an animation where he goes down and picks it up, and he'll have it in his hand. In the hand, you can inspect the object.
• If you wanted to put on a helmet; You'll grab it, look at it, you can examine or inspect, if you want to buy it you can look around at it and look at the stats. Then you could purchase it. But you say, I want the object, whether you got it off a dead soldier or whatnot. I want this guy's helmet. Now you can walk around with it, put it under your arm and walk around, and then when you're ready to drop or equip, you can go back and examine it, then you can drop it, equip it, whatever. And when you're done with it you can take it off, etc...

 

[Jupiter]

Notes vom QA-Twitch-Stream:

Matt Sherman (tech designer):
- working on getting the Herald flight-ready and defining how info-running can work as a mechanic
- brainstorming how info-running can interact with other professions like salvage, mining, search and rescue, etc.

Jeremiah Lee (character concept artist):
- worked on SQ42 and lately PU including recent rollouts of clothing
will be seeing more clothing content in future patches
- character pipeline engine limitations and optimizations ensure designs have to be simpler to limit materials and colors
- has an outfit that will be showcased at CitCon in some way
internal debate over more variety in clothing or EVA suits

Brian Chambers:
- Foundry 42 Frankfurt up to 54 staff
- Frankfurt AI team is now pretty firm at 4
- likes the new ATV format because they talk less and show more over a longer time interval
- Disco says the new format fits since CIG is now in asset creation phase
- systems are being built that are intended for final phase giving more opportunity to show off what they're working on rather than just talking about it
- Frankfurt cinematics team is 9-10 strong but showing any content would give spoilers
- at least 50% of the base CryEngine has been re-written
- CR pushed for one unified rig but Ivo Herzeg (Lead Animation Engineer) had written a paper 6-7 years ago explaining why it was technically impossible and pushed against it until breakthrough
- may do another followup video to demonstrate how a unified rig is different
- level design is creating things in modular pieces
- system team is creating things that are scalable
- now can have different ecosystems with different atmospheric effects
- biggest challenge currently is optimization after ecosystems and AI are integrated onto planets
- tells a story where a senior technical director had an idea for atmospherics, talked about how weather cycles were driven in real life, and coded a system that could mimic it over a weekend
- mentions different biomes having special characteristics (e.g. desert tileset showing mirage effects under certain heat conditions)

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/56excz/notes_from_impromptu_qas_on_todays_livestream/
_______

Tomorrow is CitizenCon btw.


CIG said that every NPC in the game can use ALL animations which can be played dynamically/ procedural generated as they are needed.
Since there is a uniform rig for all faces (and bodies) that accesses a unified animation database, Miles Eckhart from the gamescom demo could use all mimicry and gesture from Gillian Anderson or Mark Hamill.

There will also be binary star systems where multiple shadows will be casted.

They implemented a job-system where all CPU cores will be used. If your CPU has 32 cores the game will use them all.

 

[eastmen]

Can't wait to see if a release date is issued .

 

[Davros]

Jupiter I'm disappointed in you, I'm pretty sure that since your last post chris roberts has been to the toilet and you have failed to inform us of the fact....

 

[Otto Dafe]

Jupiter I'm disappointed in you, I'm pretty sure that since your last post chris roberts has been to the toilet and you have failed to inform us of the fact....

It's Citizencon man! He's probably been called back to the mothership, so to speak.

 

[eastmen]

So no release dates at all. They didn't even put a 2016 up for SQ42. So 2017 maybe ?? The delays just get worse but hey all those limited ships and limited LTI ... we are selling them again yay !!!!

Lie after lie after lie

 

[Jupiter]

Full CitizenCon presentation

Gameplay starts at 01:25:15!!! I hope they will release a video just with the gameplay.


Unfortunately nothing was shown from Squadron 42 because the AI was apparently not ready in a satisfactory level. Roberts wanted to show a whole mission in a quality Squadron 42 would have in the end. Without errors, bugs, etc. He does not want to introduce SQ42 in an unfinished way, he wants to impress the people, including non-backers and doubters.

But there is still the November and December livestream. Hopefully it will be polished in November.

From my point of view they could have shifted the gameplay without a problem. But they should have shown something from 2.6 (Star Marine) instead. Therefore in the two-hour long presentation, only half an hour was gameplay and 15 minutes where Planet 2.0 editor tech.

The planets looked really cool. The introduction of the planet was spectacular. The music composed by SCs componist (Pedro Macedo Camacho) was perfect.
Technically a lot of displacement mapping is used for the surface.

"POM adds depth to the planets in Star Citizen, and does so efficiently with the maps applied at a more global scale. Per-pixel edge blending also means that the developers, from an optimization side, can ensure that the detail scaling is as friendly with graphics hardware as possible, but retains high fidelity."

[...]

"“Even still, there's a little extra popping on the trees that we're not happy with and things like this [...] but we take that super seriously, because it's jarring when you're flying into an area and everything comes in. We've got the dissolves between LODs, we've got per-pixel – how many polys are per pixel, anyway? You can't draw anything more than 4 – that's what nVidia is recommending. There are some pretty exciting things that had to change to make that possible."

Source: http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2636-citizencon-parallax-occlusion-mapping-sean-tracy-interview

I have not seen a planet with such a graphics in another game yet. With over 70fps at the most of the time.


Overall, the CitizenCon was disappointing compared to the GamesCom. Not because of what they have shown. But because of what they have not shown.

Planet tech 2.0 Pictures

More screenshots

Spoiler

Prometheus!

EDIT:

"Talked w/ Erin Roberts at the Con, he said it was animations for different things, such as repairing and the like. It would not have looked as fluid as it was needed to be. Literally EVERYTHING else was finished. They want to have that one shot to show off SQ42 in its top condition. Hope I am paraphrasing everything correctly. I'll be glad to wait for the finished product."

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/56dtnu/citizencon_megathread/d8lkkkz

 

[Lefungus]

TLDR: No Squadron 42 in 2016, and probably not before summer 2017

From a developer's point of view, waiting for all features to get implemented is the worst thing they could do to ensure the project stall.
Lean projects get things done fast and iterate from there, and a fixed milestone is always great to push gears into motion and drop non-critical features.

Unrelated, are monster designs copyrighted ? Dune sandworms are cool though!

 

[Malo]

Some beautiful screenshots and footage. Honestly, though, they should have done whatever they needed to do to get SQ42 demonstrated at their first citizencon.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

They didn't even bother to give an estimate for Squadron 42 in 2017, did they?
And the guy even had the guts to say he's not showing anything about SQ42 because he "wants to impress the doubters and non-backers".

Well bravo, you managed to spit in the collective faces of the people counting on the promised 2016 release and still come out of it as if you were doing something good. At least for the community's sheeple (do we have a name for those? Star Cisheeples? Sheepletizens?).
That's pretty damn impressive if you ask me.

And the guy is now suddenly worried about non-backers, which could mean he's getting out of money.




Sigh.
They've kept my money for 4 years now. I give up.
How likely am I to get a refund if I ask for one nowadays? How is it working out for people asking for refunds?

I don't think this is ever going to turn into something other than these separate "modules" in alpha form and I'm not going to play modules. That money will just be better spent elsewhere, like starting to put something aside for the NX.




Most of all, I'm just sorry that he's pulled great and super nice people like Mark Hamill into this gigantic mess. That man has always been a sci-fi enthusiast his whole life and this will probably break his heart. (though he'll probably be rich again through Ep. VIII so that's fine)

 

[eastmen]

Hamill has been rich forever. He has been a working voice actor for a very long time . The new Star wars movies will make him even richer. I am sure he will be in the next few

 

[aaronspink]

Most of all, I'm just sorry that he's pulled great and super nice people like Mark Hamill into this gigantic mess. That man has always been a sci-fi enthusiast his whole life and this will probably break his heart. (though he'll probably be rich again through Ep. VIII so that's fine)

Um, pretty sure Hamill jumped at the chance to work with Roberts again. And Hamill has never been poor. The man has almost 300 credits to his name according to IMDB. He gets constant voice work and seems to really enjoy it.

And did people really not go into SC with it will be ready when its ready viewpoint? Might be just because I'm older, but I never ever expected them to be done within 5 years. I mean, Roberts has always been basically a ready when its ready kind of guy. SC has always been ambitious and was never sold as anything but...

 

[eastmen]

Um, pretty sure Hamill jumped at the chance to work with Roberts again. And Hamill has never been poor. The man has almost 300 credits to his name according to IMDB. He gets constant voice work and seems to really enjoy it.

And did people really not go into SC with it will be ready when its ready viewpoint? Might be just because I'm older, but I never ever expected them to be done within 5 years. I mean, Roberts has always been basically a ready when its ready kind of guy. SC has always been ambitious and was never sold as anything but...

I figured they'd be a year late but have SQ42 out in parts. Maybe 10 missions. I got scared when they started selling limited time ships again and then kept offering LTI . Then there were a few events where they would drop bad news about stuff while trying to push new ship sales. So it be all big on their site and emails and everything pushing a new commercial that looked great and saying hey buy this ship and blah blah blah and then in a forum thread of like 700 pages they would reply oh that star farer that was going to be a single crew member fuel transport .... Its now a 7 player ship.... oh and you know we said we'd sell it just during the last day of the kickstarter ... oh yea well na we are going to sell it again cause we want moe money. Those events kept happening and I knew this was going to be a really bad ride we were getting taken on. That was what 2013 ... So yea nothing has really changed.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Hamill has been rich forever. He has been a working voice actor for a very long time . The new Star wars movies will make him even richer. I am sure he will be in the next few

Um, pretty sure Hamill jumped at the chance to work with Roberts again. And Hamill has never been poor. The man has almost 300 credits to his name according to IMDB. He gets constant voice work and seems to really enjoy it.

I was Joking (pun intended, because he's Joker... uhm yeah..) about the rich part. Not joking about getting him involved in this mess. He once (maybe Jokingly) chose Star Citizen over Star Wars. He's up for some disappointment IMO.

And did people really not go into SC with it will be ready when its ready viewpoint? Might be just because I'm older (...)

No, it's because you're not aware of the original release dates: November 2014 for backers and 2015 for retail, with Squadron 42 coming out before that.

The tentative release date for the persistent universe is November 2014 (from the Kickstarter). "Retail" release is expected sometime in 2015, and Squadron 42 may be released episodically before then (Dec. 20 2013 livestream).

This info from December 2013, one year after the crowdfunding even started.



They were definitely aware that they were full of bullshit by then and that's the kind of dishonesty I just can't stand.
Is there an apology somewhere out there, for lying again and again about release dates? No, they just put more virtual useless crap being sold on fake-exclusive sales to make more money and feed the gigantic megalomaniac crapfest the whole thing has become.

 

[Jupiter]

The demo proofed much. The graphics on a generated planet comes close to Battlefield 1. The desert is even better than in Battlefront. And that though it's a whole generated planet.

Coming from the GamesCom demo this is a huge difference. At that time (less than 2 months ago), the planet looked simple besides the self-placed bases. It was also said during the Gamescom that Planet tech 2.0 will be far better. This one is a real planet with different bioms, deserts, mountain, different climate zones etc. They have delivered what they have promised. A generated planet that can graphically compete with today's AAA shooters.

I don't know why the TroLLTranz do care so much about this game. It seems that some people feel threatened by ambitious projects.

CIG could have easily built a typical small singleplayer campaign with 5 hours of content. But I prefer a larger and much better game in the end. Instead of a tiny game we will get 28 chapters which equals more than 60 missions.

Roadmap after 2.5 which shows the approximate direction.

Spoiler

I am counting with about 3 months between each patch. Next year players will have a lot of gameplay opportunities.

Its now a 7 player ship.... oh and you know we said we'd sell it just during the last day of the kickstarter ... oh yea well na we are going to sell it again cause we want moe money. Those events kept happening and I knew this was going to be a really bad ride we were getting taken on. That was what 2013 ... So yea nothing has really changed.

They said in the forums during CitizenCon that larger ships do not need as much people. I don't thing you would need more than 2/3 players in a Starfarer.