*spin off* Game Installs & PS3


Hmm, 4 seconds to stream textures from DVD versus 8 seconds for BluRay. Is the BluRay drive really that slow compared to the DVD drive in X360? I always thought that while the BluRay drive was slightly slower it was still pretty comparable.

I have to say I'm not particularly fond of the new trend for streaming textures in. I don't like the low res -> high res texture pop that's becoming more and more prevalent even in PC games (Borderlands for example, haven't gotten MW2 yet).

Even at 1 second to stream in textures for the HD install on X360, that is hugely detracting from IQ.

Regards,
SB
 
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With all PS3s having harddrives, they could have easily implemented a streaming system that streams data from BluRay to HDD and then reads the textures from there when they are actually needed like Uncharted did. It's just good old-fashioned multi-platform lazyness - they could have easily gotten instructions from Naughty Dog who said that it took quite literally only a day to implement for Uncharted 1.

As a programmer I'm seeing more and more clearly that many programmers choose short term solutions that give more work in the long term, and I'm feeling the same is happening here.

Not that it matters to them one bit, because they make a tonne of money anyway.

I'm REALLY not fond of texture streaming in cases like this. Starting with low res textures then 4-8 seconds later the high res texture "pops in" is hugely distracting. Even 1 second is just horrible. I see this with the PC version of Borderlands and I absolutely HATE it.

It's a horrible horrible horrible kludge, IMO.

Regards,
SB
 
I agree! IW is just really lazy. Sure, they improved the visual quality on the PS3 version from MW1 to MW2. And it is only a footnote that they also decreased the gap between the 360 version and the PS3 one. And it isn't really important that PS3's version has a general overall performance increase.

All irrelevant, because we all know ND was able to get everything workin on the HDD in 1 day, so obviously every developer and engine can do the same. Never mind budgets, variable technical issues, and focusing on multiplatform synergy (PC gamers say hello) to get a product out of the door. Because, you know, they are just lazy.
 
I agree! IW is just really lazy. Sure, they improved the visual quality on the PS3 version from MW1 to MW2. And it is only a footnote that they also decreased the gap between the 360 version and the PS3 one. And it isn't really important that PS3's version has a general overall performance increase.

All irrelevant, because we all know ND was able to get everything workin on the HDD in 1 day, so obviously every developer and engine can do the same. Never mind budgets, variable technical issues, and focusing on multiplatform synergy (PC gamers say hello) to get a product out of the door. Because, you know, they are just lazy.

I think it is because no one complained before so they don't make it a priority. They also know that PS3 is not the console for maximum sales for MW2.

It is about priority not lazyness. Clearly for them it is not worth the development/porting time/cost to make better PS3 optimizations.

Maybe for them this is a good business decision.
 
But Joshua's point is that they have made a lot of PS3 optimizations - the port is much better and closer to the X360 version then before.
 
But Joshua's point is that they have made a lot of PS3 optimizations - the port is much better and closer to the X360 version then before.

Nah, my point was IW is lazy! ;)

(My post wasn't dripping with enough sarcasm?)
 
Arwin said:
With all PS3s having harddrives, they could have easily implemented a streaming system that streams data from BluRay to HDD and then reads the textures from there when they are actually needed like Uncharted did. It's just good old-fashioned multi-platform lazyness - they could have easily gotten instructions from Naughty Dog who said that it took quite literally only a day to implement for Uncharted 1.

Or Sony could allow games the option to be entirely installed to hdd giving every existing and upcoming game an automatic speed boost, save the fragile blu-ray drives some wear, and save every developer time, money and q/a from having to implement their own optical->hdd caching system. Seems like the obvious and easiest thing to do. Sounds like you should be calling Sony lazy because with one fell swoop they can solve the problem on their entire library of games and help us all in the process.
 
Or Sony could allow games the option to be entirely installed to hdd giving every existing and upcoming game an automatic speed boost, save the fragile blu-ray drives some wear, and save every developer time, money and q/a from having to implement their own optical->hdd caching system. Seems like the obvious and easiest thing to do. Sounds like you should be calling Sony lazy because with one fell swoop they can solve the problem on their entire library of games and help us all in the process.

You can't call them lazy for that, because there was a time when they did allow that. I'd sooner call them dumb for that, except that back then everyone complained about these mandatory installs that took forever and filled your harddrive (I actually didn't know Sony changed their policy on that - you're the first one to mention it - in fact I was already surprised that MW2 doesn't require a full HDD install). Doesn't Tekken 6 also allow you a full install as an option? Somehow I feel that even if it's a mandated policy now, IW could have negotiated themselves out of it.

If anything, and assuming that this isn't the case already, I'd call Sony lazy for not offering some form of SDK support for combined HDD / BD streaming, which I still believe should perform better than a full HDD install. However, I'm assuming it's more convenient for multi-platform developers to work on a single-source streaming solution anyway, because from the pdf that Naughty Dog published (as well as the pdf on a similar topic that Microsoft put up, and who did include some automated optimisations using HDD cache) I get the impression that development targets streaming from DVD exclusively for multi-platform titles on purpose, and either used to .

@Laa-Yosh: maybe there is more parity, but I got the impression from the DF article that the actual framerate is worse in MW2 over MW1? In a game like this that's supposedly all about twitch, 60fps and multi-player, it make me wonder. The skeptic in me thinks that any improvements to its graphics-engine on PS3 have been done to make things more equal on all levels, including assets and art direction, and probably involved the work of one programmer.
 
Or Sony could allow games the option to be entirely installed to hdd giving every existing and upcoming game an automatic speed boost, save the fragile blu-ray drives some wear, and save every developer time, money and q/a from having to implement their own optical->hdd caching system. Seems like the obvious and easiest thing to do. Sounds like you should be calling Sony lazy because with one fell swoop they can solve the problem on their entire library of games and help us all in the process.

Not exactly "laziness", but it'd be a wonderful option I'd like to see myself. The BD drive is no more fragile than other optical drives, for better or worse but I'd like to spare wear and tear whenever possible.

With the option to allow us to swap HDD's with any off self 2.5" SATA, one would think it would be a no brainer. Who cares if it'll take an hour to install a game fully when it's convenient for consumers and developers?

EDIT: Arwin, Tekken 6's install is still a partial one. Joker was referring to a 100% install ala the 360.
 
Or Sony could allow games the option to be entirely installed to hdd giving every existing and upcoming game an automatic speed boost, save the fragile blu-ray drives some wear, and save every developer time, money and q/a from having to implement their own optical->hdd caching system. Seems like the obvious and easiest thing to do. Sounds like you should be calling Sony lazy because with one fell swoop they can solve the problem on their entire library of games and help us all in the process.

How does an OS level optional install feature excuse developers from implementing hdd caching that is otherwise necessary or at least beneficial? Makes no sense.

Plus, game level optional install shouldn't require rocket science or any money, considering all of those games are developed on HDD first.
 
SG79 said:
Not exactly "laziness", but it'd be a wonderful option I'd like to see myself. The BD drive is no more fragile than other optical drives, for better or worse but I'd like to spare wear and tear whenever possible.

Well I was being facetious of course with the word lazy, just used it to make a point.


How does an OS level optional install feature excuse developers from implementing hdd caching that is otherwise necessary or at least beneficial? Makes no sense.

How do you know an optical->hdd cache would even work fast enough for MW2? You can run around really fast in that game, and unlike Uncharted 2 the level design isn't built around supporting an optical->hdd cache type of setup with levels cut up into small digestible sections, or having long cutscenes to mask the time taken to repopulate the cache. When you play MW2 you get thrown into the game quick and move around really quick. When would there even be time to populate a dynamic cache? Would such a setup even work for MW2? Or do we just do the typical silliness of pointing to Uncharted and automatically presume everything it does must be applicable to every other game out there? For some games a blu-ray->hdd texture cache might not work. If the rate of onscreen change is too quick then the cache spends all it's time in a populate->discard->populate->discard loop. An install on the other hand would totally work, no cache to keep updated via slow blu-ray.


Plus, game level optional install shouldn't require rocket science or any money, considering all of those games are developed on HDD first.

No, but it requires Sony's ok as we currently are only allowed to use a certain amount of hdd space. It they added os level game install support (which would mean bumping up the hdd space limit) then that would solve everything. I do not want level install like MGS4 did, that is extremely disruptive.
 
How do you know an optical->hdd cache would even work fast enough for MW2?
This has nothing to do with what either of us said, but since I'm in the mood I'll bite.
You can run around really fast in that game, and unlike Uncharted 2 the level design isn't built around supporting an optical->hdd cache type of setup with levels cut up into small digestible sections, or having long cutscenes to mask the time taken to repopulate the cache.
Have you really played any of those games? Uncharted 2 doesn't use cutscenes to mask anything. All those long cutscenes are skipable.
It's MW2 (like the previous one) that keeps showing "cutscenes" to "mask" loading.
When you play MW2 you get thrown into the game quick and move around really quick. When would there even be time to populate a dynamic cache?
During the long and frequent cutscenes that are not immediately skippable? :)
Would such a setup even work for MW2? Or do we just do the typical silliness of pointing to Uncharted and automatically presume everything it does must be applicable to every other game out there?
No, if that was the case, we would say MW2 has terrible tech and leave it at that.
For some games a blu-ray->hdd texture cache might not work.
I'm sure there are such games. In fact for any game that streams continuously, HDD cannot help to improve streaming speed. Unfortunately for you MW2 is not that game.
Now that this discussion is out of the way, once again how does optional install excuse developers from implementing HDD caching that is otherwise helpful?
If the rate of onscreen change is too quick then the cache spends all it's time in a populate->discard->populate->discard loop. An install on the other hand would totally work, no cache to keep updated via slow blu-ray.

No, but it requires Sony's ok as we currently are only allowed to use a certain amount of hdd space.
Lots of games use up to 5-6 GBs to install and/or cache data.
Plus, Sony would OK anything Infinity Ward demanded if we are to believe a certain poster here. ;)
It they added os level game install support (which would mean bumping up the hdd space limit) then that would solve everything. I do not want level install like MGS4 did, that is extremely disruptive.
OS Level install ala your favorite console would often mean 25GB installs.
I'm not sure that's the ideal solution. Not that I'm against it or anything but it doesn't excuse developers from anything else as you claim.
 
OS Level install ala your favorite console would often mean 25GB installs.I'm not sure that's the ideal solution. Not that I'm against it or anything but it doesn't excuse developers from anything else as you claim.

If you take the 360 install to HDD, many games don't install the total of data present on the disk. And we known that many games on PS3 have redundant datas on the Blu-ray, so don't think many games take 25 Gb after installation.

Other question, are the southbridge of PS3 and 360 have the capacities to handle the dual stream from disk and HDD to have a better stream than only one from HDD in Game situation?
 
This has nothing to do with what either of us said, but since I'm in the mood I'll bite.

Of course it does, you talked about hdd caching!


Have you really played any of those games? Uncharted 2 doesn't use cutscenes to mask anything. All those long cutscenes are skipable.
It's MW2 (like the previous one) that keeps showing "cutscenes" to "mask" loading.

During the long and frequent cutscenes that are not immediately skippable? :)

No, if that was the case, we would say MW2 has terrible tech and leave it at that.

I can get all PS3 games for <= $10, so yeah I have Uncharted 2. That game clearly wraps itself around the optical->hdd cache system, it's been tailored to it. Which of course has zero implication on any other game since other games have different needs, a point that has proven almost impossibly difficult to get across. However it might be moot since it seems like you aren't talking about hdd caching at all.


I'm sure there are such games. In fact for any game that streams continuously, HDD cannot help to improve streaming speed. Unfortunately for you MW2 is not that game.

I'm saying MW2 *might* not benefit from a optical->hdd caching system. As in most cases it's tough for us to know without more data, so raising the lazy flag is premature, and pointing to other games as examples is just wrong. It would be like me pointing to a Mitsubishi Evo and saying the designers are lazy because it can't go up a dirt hill as well as a Jeep. I mean they are both vehicles right? Both have engines, both have four wheels, both have awd right? Pointing to game 'x' and saying all games should do what it does is just as silly as my vehicle comparison.


Now that this discussion is out of the way, once again how does optional install excuse developers from implementing HDD caching that is otherwise helpful?

Lots of games use up to 5-6 GBs to install and/or cache data.
Plus, Sony would OK anything Infinity Ward demanded if we are to believe a certain poster here. ;)

Ok, you aren't talking about a hdd caching system at all, just a partial game install. That is totally different. A partial install isn't a cache, the data is always there, whereas an hdd cache is constantly updated with new data. Semantics I guess, but explains how I misunderstood you. Anyways, yes a partial permanent install would obviously help. You'd have to ask IW why they chose not to do that.


OS Level install ala your favorite console would often mean 25GB installs. I'm not sure that's the ideal solution. Not that I'm against it or anything but it doesn't excuse developers from anything else as you claim.

They wouldn't be 25gb installs. We're encouraged to use as much blu-ray space as possible, whether needed or not, to pimp blu-ray. So if installs were allowed then people would see the true size of some of the '25gb' games out there. Hint....they wouldn't be 25gb. I still think full OS supported installs are the way to go, just keep them optional. The current system of mandatory partial installs is problematic. What if someone doesn't have enough space? Keep the whole thing optional, it solves everything. Kind of obvious when you have user replaceable hdd's don't you think?
 
joker454 said:
I'm saying MW2 *might* not benefit from a optical->hdd caching system.
The only games that don't benefit from such a system are those that load 100% forward (no directional freedom). But in that case streaming becomes that much easier to optimize for, because you always know exactly what is needed in next moment.

if the rate of onscreen change is too quick then the cache spends all it's time in a populate->discard->populate->discard loop
I don't remember how much space is allowed for cache, but I do remember Burnout caches the entire city in less then half an hour of playing, so it can't be "that" small (and that game is certainly on high-end of movement speed across game-world).

optional, it solves everything. Kind of obvious when you have user replaceable hdd's don't you think?
Except a dev/pub would just release games that are basically unplayable without install from that point on. How do you think PC install "system" came to be?
 
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There is another option :D

What about the way Fallout 3, Oblivion and Wolverine do installs on PS3? On boot up the game installs (partially I guess) to the HDD, but does so in the background. If the user doesn't have enough space, they are told, but you can play without the install with longer load times. What is so offensive about this method that so few games use it? Its far less intrusive to the player than the popular way, and operates on the same priciple as 360 installs (if you have the space, loads will be faster).
 
The only games that don't benefit from such a system are those that load 100% forward (no directional freedom). But in that case streaming becomes that much easier to optimize for, because you always know exactly what is needed in next moment.

I don't remember how much space is allowed for cache, but I do remember Burnout caches the entire city in less then half an hour of playing, so it can't be "that" small (and that game is certainly on high-end of movement speed across game-world).

In both of those cases you still deal with texture pop as you are first running around in the game so the pop uglyness is still there at least initially, compared to a full hdd install where it wouldn't be (or at least significantly less). Also, take a game like MW2 online where you get in a map, play 10 minutes, move to the next map, rinse and repeat. In that style of play the benefit of a dynamic cache is somewhat minimized compared to a full install. It's effectiveness eventually kicks in, but then you are moving to the next map and the texture pop starts all over again as the cache is emptied and repopulated. Or when you die while playing the single player game, it snaps you back to a checkpoint and there's that texture pop again all over again, a dynamic cache can't deal with that. Again an hdd install solves that, or dramatically reduces it.

Except a dev/pub would just release games that are basically unplayable without install from that point on. How do you think PC install "system" came to be?

That's easy to fix, certification fail if you don't run without full install :) I realize why partial installs came to be, something had to be done to deal with slow blu-ray seeks. But they can still allow mandatory partial installs just keep them really small (maybe 1gb) so they don't become overly intrusive, and allow a full install option for those who've got the room. Games that benefit from a small dynamic cache can still go ahead and do that. There's lots of options available given then the hdd is standard, they just need to unlock that last option, the full install.


What about the way Fallout 3, Oblivion and Wolverine do installs on PS3? On boot up the game installs (partially I guess) to the HDD, but does so in the background. If the user doesn't have enough space, they are told, but you can play without the install with longer load times. What is so offensive about this method that so few games use it? Its far less intrusive to the player than the popular way, and operates on the same priciple as 360 installs (if you have the space, loads will be faster).

How long do they take to copy their data? It's a certification fail if a game takes too long to boot, and the length of time allowed shortens over the life of the console. If you can do all your copying, setup, etc and boot in time then it is a viable option. Of course you will be compared to the 360 version which doesn't have to do that and hence will look less favorable in comparisons, something which no one wants. You know the drill, it would lead to the inevitable comments like "lazy devs don't optimize load time for Cell", "they were paid by m$ to do that", etc...

Oblivion and Fallout are good candidates for what you mention because their scenery doesn't really change significantly per unit time. Or worded differently, new textures are required fairly slowly as you walk around in those worlds, there isn't a lot that changes dramatically. Not sure about Wolverine, only played the demo. I wonder if Uncharted 2 does that, it does seems to take a long time to boot up.
 
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Do the online maps in MW2 stream though? I doubt that, at least I haven't seen many multiplayer games that do. Resistance 2 used a streaming solution for the SP, but MP was all in-place.

Also... using a dynamic HDD cache. Why not just leave it be, i.e. not overwrite data, when you pass certain points in the game. The levels in MW2 aren't THAT huge, so a 1GB cache would probably be enough for any level anyway. That way, you beat two flies with one stroke.
 
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