*spin-off* Feasibility of Water Cooling Radiator Setups

[almighty]

Water can't get down to below zero, air can. I saw my P4 run at slightly under freezing temperature of water on air cooling when my box was in -20C

It wouldn't be below 0 as it would have a heat load on it.

And sub zero ambient is not something that any one really does 24/7 so its a moot argument.

My current CPU does run sub-zero though 24/7

 

[hoho]

It wouldn't be below 0 as it would have a heat load on it.

wait, what? You do realize that Celsius is not Kelvin, right?

And sub zero ambient is not something that any one really does 24/7 so its a moot argument

Obviously. Just that having water cooling in a console makes about as much sense

My current CPU does run sub-zero though 24/7

And?

 

[almighty]

Obviously. Just that having water cooling in a console makes about as much sense

Care to expand on that?

 

[snarfbot]

wouldnt it be better if they just took a regular radiator and pointed a spray nozzle or something at it, and misted it with water.

that way you wouldnt have to worry about running out of water, or getting gunk in your waterblock, because your loop is closed, but you would still have evap cooling available if necessary.

mount it in a window so the water gets out of the house too.

 

[dobwal]

Water can't get down to below zero, air can. I saw my P4 run at slightly under freezing temperature of water on air cooling when my box was in -20C

Water by itself can't but add some antifreeze and freezing point drops to ~ -37 C and boiling point of 129 C.

Im not versed in water versus air cooling so I have no ideal whether it would be suitable for a console or not. But wouldn't it come down to how much heat is produced by the hardware and how much heat needs to be removed from within the system to keep it within operating temperatures?

What if MS's next console generates as much heat as a launch 360 but is the size of a Wii? Wouldn't a water cooling system makes better sense in that circumstance where it water's higher specific heat capacity, density, and thermal conductivity gives it an advantage over air?

 

[hoho]

But wouldn't it come down to how much heat is produced by the hardware and how much heat needs to be removed from within the system to keep it within operating temperatures?

Of course it does, it's basic physics. It doesn't make any difference how you transfer heat energy from the chip to radiator fins, you still need same kind of air flow to cool it down assuming similar radiator fin temperature for the water and heatpipe cooler. If the system is allowed to get to higher temperatures that will also allow to use lower airflow because the bigger the temperature difference vs ambient temperature gets the more heat gets removed by air.

That should also answer to almighty's last question. Though considering people have tried explaining it for five pages I don't think he accepts it

 

[Mize]

So you have a blisteringly hot Wii with a water loop running through a small freezer to get the temp down?

Closed-circuit water can never cool below ambient unless you introduce some sort of refrigeration or evaporation system. The only real advantage of water cooling is the higher heat flux from the source to the coolant which allows you to achieve a lower steady-state temperature on the heat source. If you stick that Xbox 720 in a Wii case into the average consumer's entertainment system is simply isn't going to help because the heat will build up outside the radiator and there goes your cooling capacity.

The best solution for future consoles is cooler chips.

 

[dobwal]

So you have a blisteringly hot Wii with a water loop running through a small freezer to get the temp down?

Closed-circuit water can never cool below ambient unless you introduce some sort of refrigeration or evaporation system. The only real advantage of water cooling is the higher heat flux from the source to the coolant which allows you to achieve a lower steady-state temperature on the heat source. If you stick that Xbox 720 in a Wii case into the average consumer's entertainment system is simply isn't going to help because the heat will build up outside the radiator and there goes your cooling capacity.

The best solution for future consoles is cooler chips.

Who cares if a closed-circuit water loop can never cool below ambient temperature unless you trying to operate a console inside a wood stove.

The only reason I put forth the 360Wii as an example because unless you define the system in which you trying to cool, you can't really answer the question of whether an air based or a water based cooling system makes better sense.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You need to assume the people will be trying to use it in an enclosed space or some other worst case scenario.

 

[eastmen]

They would be smater to put the dvd/bluray player (god why will we still have these ) on the bottom and put the mobo on the top and just put a larger fan to directly remove the heat from the console.

It will be much cheaper than the current set up

 

[Shifty Geezer]

No matter how big a radiator you will always have a water temps that's 4-5c above ambient due to the air that's being pushed by the fans is at ambient temperature -/+ 2-3

You're aware that's scientifically impossible and doesn't stand up to reason? 'No matter how big the radiator' means consider a radtiator the size of a...coin. Clearly it won't be passing much heat into the air, so the water over time will heat up.

Although the water cooler may be giving you lower core temps, at the other end of the water cooling system is the radiator which works just like a heatsink. It removes heat from the system into the air by conduction and radiation. If the rate at which the heat is removed from the water loop is lower than the rate the heat is put into the water loop, it's going to have to heat up. If your experience with water coolers is that all hit a happy equilibrium around the 4-5 degrees above ambient mark, that just shows that they've all been balanced around that.

 

[almighty]

You're aware that's scientifically impossible and doesn't stand up to reason? 'No matter how big the radiator' means consider a radtiator the size of a...coin. Clearly it won't be passing much heat into the air, so the water over time will heat up.

Although the water cooler may be giving you lower core temps, at the other end of the water cooling system is the radiator which works just like a heatsink. It removes heat from the system into the air by conduction and radiation. If the rate at which the heat is removed from the water loop is lower than the rate the heat is put into the water loop, it's going to have to heat up. If your experience with water coolers is that all hit a happy equilibrium around the 4-5 degrees above ambient mark, that just shows that they've all been balanced around that.

See this is why I'm not bothering with this thread any more, I post facts, Facts which have been backed up by hundreds of forum users and web sites and they still get shot down.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

See this is why I'm not bothering with this thread any more, I post facts, Facts which have been backed up by hundreds of forum users and web sites and they still get shot down.

What fact proves that irrespective of radiator size, water temp can and never will get more than 5 degrees above ambient? How does that tie in with the facts Prophecy2k provided about the calculations scientists ascertained to determine cooling efficiencty?

Do you really believe that a...5cm^2 radiator is all that's needed in a water cooled console to ensure cool CPU temps and efficient removal of heat from the system? If so, why do PCs have great big radiators when any sized radiator is perfectly capable of doing the job? That's just a waste of money. I don't know if I'm just missing what you were saying or if you really are that wrong about how heat dissipation works.

 

[hoho]

almighty, you are confusing facts with anecdotal evidence and ignoring simpliest things like how big were the cooling fans, radiators and heat dissipation that was cooled by those systems.

 

[almighty]

What fact proves that irrespective of radiator size, water temp can and never will get more than 5 degrees above ambient? How does that tie in with the facts Prophecy2k provided about the calculations scientists ascertained to determine cooling efficiencty?

Do you really believe that a...5cm^2 radiator is all that's needed in a water cooled console to ensure cool CPU temps and efficient removal of heat from the system? If so, why do PCs have great big radiators when any sized radiator is perfectly capable of doing the job? That's just a waste of money. I don't know if I'm just missing what you were saying or if you really are that wrong about how heat dissipation works.

PC radiators are overkill, No too words about it but moving up in size isn't really that much more expensive.

You could do most CPU's with a single 120mm radiator and a decent block, But then a 240mm radiator wouldn't be that much over the top so people tend to buy the bigger version.

As I've said before I reckon that a 80mm^2 radiator with a decent water block and a 150-200lph pump would be more then enough for a next gen console.

 

[hoho]

Can you define "decent radiator" with actual measures? Like total fin area and width * height * depth of the radiator that is capable of cooling down, 175W heat source?

 

[almighty]

almighty, you are confusing facts with anecdotal evidence and ignoring simpliest things like how big were the cooling fans, radiators and heat dissipation that was cooled by those systems.

Most top end air coolers have more surface area and higher fin density then a 120mm radiator in most all in one water cooling systems.

Performance is similar between both.

You can generally use smaller, Quieter fans on a radiator then on a big heat sink.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

As I've said before I reckon that a 80mm^2 radiator with a decent water block and a 150-200lph pump would be more then enough for a next gen console.

You might be right, but what about your comment that the size of the radiator doesn't affect water temperature, and any sized radiator will have water at 4-5 degrees above ambient?

No matter how big a radiator you will always have a water temps that's 4-5c above ambient due to the air that's being pushed by the fans is at ambient temperature -/+ 2-3

This comment appears to be saying there is no correlation whatsoever between radiator size and water temperature.

 

[almighty]

You might be right, but what about your comment that the size of the radiator doesn't affect water temperature, and any sized radiator will have water at 4-5 degrees above ambient?
This comment appears to be saying there is no correlation whatsoever between radiator size and water temperature.

If you match it up to a suitable heat load then yes.

You wouldn't put a massive heat load on a 50^2mm radiator would you?

If you match it up it'll perform like a bigger Rad on a bigger heat load.

Water temp doesn't vary that much between rads ... You can have several radiators and general performance between them will be a few degrees at best...

 

[almighty]

Can you define "decent radiator" with actual measures? Like total fin area and width * height * depth of the radiator that is capable of cooling down, 175W heat source?

Sizes?

80mm wide
160mm tall
30-40mm thick
20-30 fins per inch

Should easily blast a 175w heat load.