*spin-off* Always on/connected... stuff

What do you think Diablo III, successor to one of the most popular franchises in PC history and from one of the preeminent PC game companies, would have sold with it?

And how about SimCity, which sold 1.1 million in preorders and day 1, and the latest disclosed April total stands at 1.2 million and hundreds of thousands of units in compensatory game giveaways?
Honest question, is a 90% drop in sales in the first month normal?
 
It possibly is normal. Imagine how many units a game sells 12 months after release - enough to pay for the required server ? maybe not, thats why some of us are worried
 
What do you think Diablo III, successor to one of the most popular franchises in PC history and from one of the preeminent PC game companies, would have sold with it?

Significantly less.


And how about SimCity, which sold 1.1 million in preorders and day 1, and the latest disclosed April total stands at 1.2 million and hundreds of thousands of units in compensatory game giveaways?
Honest question, is a 90% drop in sales in the first month normal?

"Latest disclosed" does not == current sales numbers. Plus EA botched the server setup, that's a different issue altogether.
 
Significantly less.
That's an unfortunate non-number.
I'm sure your workaday big publisher cares about its customers so much, that even one lost paying customer is a significant sum.

If we could produce a before/after comparison, we could see what the conversion rate is.

"Latest disclosed" does not == current sales numbers. Plus EA botched the server setup, that's a different issue altogether.
If we had actual numbers besides "significant" we could analyse how much EA gained in paying customers versus the increased clawback consumers may have in the event of a failure.

It can also be used to compare to the cost-adder of developing and building out the server infrastructure for a single-player game.
We seem to know what happens if you try to skimp on said costs, and I no longer think it's just about server setup for SimCity.

Amazon's cloud service did well enough, and it scaled out the number of servers well enough, but what it was told to run was garbage.
There are fundamental infrastructure problems even after response times improved, and design problems that show that they thought they could structure things like that of a predominantly single-player experience, and the reality is that the additional costs will be extracted either before or after release.
 
That's an unfortunate non-number.
I'm sure your workaday big publisher cares about its customers so much, that even one lost paying customer is a significant sum.

If we could produce a before/after comparison, we could see what the conversion rate is.

You know as well as I do that it's impossible to come to concrete numbers with something like this. Even when numbers are thrown out there no one believes them anyways. EA can come out and say that 4 million people pirated Crysis, to which the publisher will claim all are lost sales while forum folk will claim none are lost sales. Who is right? Additionally you know as well as I do that it's impossible to accurately track how prevalent piracy really is as there are plenty of untraceable ways to pirate games. Heck I've seen people swap hard drives filled with games right inside the Fry's eating area, that kind of theft is untraceable. For whatever reason the digital industry seems to be the only one where rampant theft is deemed to be a non issue to sales. I have no idea why, more so because it's the simplest form of theft to where you are extremely unlikely to ever be caught. It's not a huge leap to come to the conclusion that if millions of people are downloading your product for free then there's a good chance you are losing sales. If you don't believe that then make something digital that you want to sell, then give it to me and I'll upload it for free to every website possible.

Regarding online infrastructure, of course there will be teething pains at first but like anything else it will improve. Sim City may well be the poster child for that, but things will get better.
 
And how about SimCity, which sold 1.1 million in preorders and day 1, and the latest disclosed April total stands at 1.2 million and hundreds of thousands of units in compensatory game giveaways?
Honest question, is a 90% drop in sales in the first month normal?

It's not unusual, but i'm sure the publicity hasn't helped.
How it fairs long term will depend greatly on word of mouth from players, traditionally Sim games have done the bulk of their sales in small amounts over a long time, with large spikes in sales on the release of expansion packs.

FWIW 1.1M is significantly more than the first month sales of the last SimCity if the numbers I've seen are correct. Which is probably why they got swamped in the first place.
 
What do you think Diablo III, successor to one of the most popular franchises in PC history and from one of the preeminent PC game companies, would have sold with it?

No way to determine, but my expectation would be significantly less. 12 million is a really stupidly high number for any platform let alone PC.
Obviously not every pirated copy is a lost sale, but some of them are.
The general rule seems to be if it's available for free without significant inconvenience a significant number of people who would have bought will copy it.
 
Piracy levels on PC are insane. I buy all my games, but on PC around me that isn't ... very common.
 
Single player games can still make use of the internet. The perfect case for Durango is cloud-based speech recognition. Kinect can access a massive server system for speech recognition, and skeletal tracking, using massive distributed learning across every user, producing far better results than can be achieved with a console. That speech and body recognition could be a part of every game. It'll only work if you are connected to the internet. Nothing stupid about requiring an internet connection in that case.

It all depends on how the limitless data possibilities of online are used, but a lot of folk arguing to the contrary are seeing the future are current game design stuck with internet validation, which IMO is short-sighted. Anything that's 'sociable' or 'persistent' or requiring some fancy storage will benefit from an online connection, and that could be every game. Heck, MS could mandate every game provide such features to differentiate from every other gaming box out there.

So like Siri basically. The responsiveness of Siri is often impaired by the quality of the connection.
 
You know as well as I do that it's impossible to come to concrete numbers with something like this.
Perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but companies like EA and Blizzard are asserting some very strong claims of authority over the way the consumer can use their products, based on something they aren't interested in fully characterizing.

Even when numbers are thrown out there no one believes them anyways. EA can come out and say that 4 million people pirated Crysis, to which the publisher will claim all are lost sales while forum folk will claim none are lost sales. Who is right?
In a world not made of straw men, I imagine we'd both agree that the conversion rate is neither 0 nor 1.

There are far more mysterious problems that statistical analysis and proxy data have been used to get at least a ballpark figure.
It came up earlier that digital sales see an uptick when various file locker sites go down. The ratio of total sales to "spike" sales is a data point that might be helpful.


The debate should have factors like this:
1) What is the realizeable sales base, which isn't the whole set of valid and pirated copies, but something on a cost/time curve between the two numbers that can give a reasonable ceiling to what the most thorough antipiracy measure can hope to bring in?

2) What is the cost of the measure, in terms of extra design and validation, ongoing costs, and risk?
What are the revenue gains compared to larger ongoing expenses, and how much is left over after the apology giveaways are factored in?

3) What are the tangible and intangible costs of the more invasive schemes on consumers? This includes things like lost time, lost progress, loss of resale value of personal libraries, the chilling effect of things like loss of all games in the event of a dispute of one transaction.

4) What percentage of loss is society apt to declare the cost of doing business, rather than permitting further empowerment of the publisher?

5) Is the debate inside of the publisher mindset truly only concerned for piracy, and things like the end of used game sales and new means of user monetization are somehow "unexpected"?

Where is the crossover point in terms of risk and reward for the publisher, and are some of them taking on greater liabilities than they realize?
Even if there is still a margin of gain for the content developer, even after a given service is kept running, can the gain for a the content creator or publisher be accepted without taking into account the cost to the consumer?

For whatever reason the digital industry seems to be the only one where rampant theft is deemed to be a non issue to sales.
It's an issue to sales, but it's not theft.
I don't copy games, but I resent the overreach in declaring infringement to be theft.
The facility to sell one's digital product is not compromised, unless a hacker proceeds to delete your data repositories after copying a game.
The only thing "lost" is some amount of money that under normal circumstances should have been paid.
To say that someone "stole" a publisher's right to someone else's wallet implies a form of ownership they have no right to claim.

The interesting wrinkle is that if a game is truly running as a service with material publisher-side computation, then copying game and running it could constitute a theft of a service--if the publisher/developer is honestly interested in providing a service and not just calling their game a service so they don't have to allow returns or let someone play a game once the sequel comes out.

An obligate-online game like SimCity (if the online weren't so patently tacked-on) should have allowed for Origin to permit refunds, or partial refunds based on the play time statistics they collect on a user every couple minutes.

If you don't believe that then make something digital that you want to sell, then give it to me and I'll upload it for free to every website possible.
I do believe there is an effect on the sales of a product.
But look on the bright side: that product does not degrade, requires no warehouse space, can require no shipping costs, almost no manufacturing costs, can be remotely disabled for any reason, has instantaneous global exposure, can be sold broken and fixed at your leisure, is merely "licensed" so you can make someone not own it at any time.
It also has a regulatory environment that in which a person with an iPad filled with infringing material can be fined the sum total of the GDP of the United States, but publishers can take your money for a service running on a vacuum tube server connected to the internet with a taut string, and the publisher can just say "eat a dick".

Regarding online infrastructure, of course there will be teething pains at first but like anything else it will improve. Sim City may well be the poster child for that, but things will get better.
If that means that content providers will be willing to act like real service providers, with real QoS terms, transparent product lifespan, material claw-back for QoS failures, reasonable EULAs and maybe things like sunset and bankruptcy guarantees for products past their sales windows, I don't have many objections.

The current trajectory doesn't include that, since it seems their bigger foe is the idea that people own their own wallets.

FWIW 1.1M is significantly more than the first month sales of the last SimCity if the numbers I've seen are correct. Which is probably why they got swamped in the first place.
The last SimCity was also released a decade ago, prior to quite a few changes in the way PC sales are handled, and the peak of the preorder craze.
The marketing campaign, preorders, and a decade of waiting may have front-loaded things a bit.

EA did tout that SimCity had massive pre-order numbers, and Amazon's cloud service is what they use for the back end. The total number of selectable servers now is around 5x the initial outlay, and frequent server problems persist.
We'd have to assume EA's preorder and Origin download figures, plus the number of launcher registration requests in the early days, were off by a factor of 5, and that Amazon's cloud service isn't designed to scale up and down very rapidly.
We also have to assume that the server sync hiccups and multiplayer lag experienced in the press beta and the negligently pointless official beta didn't give them a clue that something was not right.
If it were developed right, it should have been able to spin up in hours or days.

Actual events are more indicative of a lack due diligence on the part of EA and Maxis in how they developed an ostensibly online game by skating by with the same sort of slapdash development their single-player games had (the predecessors weren't perfect by a long shot)--back when the bulk of their filing infrastructure was vetted as part of the Windows file system.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So like Siri basically. The responsiveness of Siri is often impaired by the quality of the connection.
I deliberately wanted to avoid comparison with existing online services to avoid experiential comparisons. There are many alternative experiences. eg. A game could be constantly downloading a local speech pack per game, rather than running it live off the servers, while uploading data to the servers that is crunched to improve the language understanding.
 
Regarding online infrastructure, of course there will be teething pains at first but like anything else it will improve. Sim City may well be the poster child for that, but things will get better.

Well the FCC, from what I read, is planing to bring gigabit internet to all 52 states by 2015 so it's matter of time before you see an improvement.
And once the US arrives there you can bet the world will follow.
Also Google Fiber will happen soon or later and recently I read that researchers produced optical fibers that can operate at 99.7% of the c so better infrastructures are bound to happen.
 
Well the FCC, from what I read, is planing to bring gigabit internet to all 52 states by 2015 so it's matter of time before you see an improvement.
And once the US arrives there you can bet the world will follow.
Also Google Fiber will happen soon or later and recently I read that researchers produced optical fibers that can operate at 99.7% of the c so better infrastructures are bound to happen.

I'd like to see that but I'm doubtful.

There's a reason the US lags well behind other nations, even those who are not in the G8, for telecom infrastructure. Look up the OECD surveys.

They allow the current companies to lobby and write laws to suit their business, lock out competition. So Americans pay more for slower speeds.

If some part of the govt. tried to improve the infrastructure, the lobbyists and the astroturf campaigns will cry about "govt. takeover" of what should be best done by the free market.

That is if they mean by free market, gouge the consumer for the least cost possible. Time after time, the cable and telcos drag their feet on upgrading the infrastructure in a given market. But if there is competition introduced, in the form of a municipal entity building a competing network, then they up their game.

So now, they go and bribe state legislators to outlaw municipal govts. from bringing better broadband infrastructure to their cities.

Google Fiber has deployed to one city in several years. They aren't a factor unless they talk nationwide deployments.

I also heard that Verizon Fios, the biggest rollout of FTTP, hasn't been profitable so Verizon has stopped rolling it out to more markets, after cherry-picking the most profitable DMAs.
 
^^^
You are doubtful but I have no doubt: you can either go forward, improve or fall behind.
And the rest of the world still comes after US anyway.
I live in the EU and frankly we are in deeper s*** than you...Germany aside.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well the FCC, from what I read, is planing to bring gigabit internet to all 52 states by 2015 so it's matter of time before you see an improvement.
And once the US arrives there you can bet the world will follow.
Also Google Fiber will happen soon or later and recently I read that researchers produced optical fibers that can operate at 99.7% of the c so better infrastructures are bound to happen.

When did we get 2 more states? Does the rest of the world consider Afghanistan and Iraq part of the US now? LOL.

MS launched Live with the majority of US homes still on dial up, so its not like MS hasnt done this before. If you want your product to have a ten year life span then your product design has to be forward looking.

Infrastructure improvements will happen.
 
What makes you think Americans are interested in going forward?

It would be good for your own sake ;)

When did we get 2 more states? Does the rest of the world consider Afghanistan and Iraq part of the US now? LOL.

Oh dear!
Please believe me it's just an oversight.
I will not edit the post to remind myself of my stupidity.

MS launched Live with the majority of US homes still on dial up, so its not like MS hasnt done this before. If you want your product to have a ten year life span then your product design has to be forward looking.

Infrastructure improvements will happen

Yep.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It would be good for your own sake ;)



Oh dear!
Please believe me it's just an oversight.
I will not edit the post to remind myself of my stupidity.

Its no big deal. I just found it amusing that you had me questioning my current knowledge of world events for a fraction of a second.
 
Back
Top