*spin-off* Always on/connected... stuff

[-tkf-]

I think I lost track, what was the disc activation method trying to achieve?

As I see it, there is 2 ways now, the dd method, which Microsoft could have kept with all the planned features and advantages.

And the classic disc copy.

If really needed there could be a disc without activation that merely functioned as a transportation device for the dd data.
That's how wow ended up working.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think I lost track, what was the disc activation method trying to achieve?

To be able to play the game without needing the disc in the drive (without people being able to just share the disk and copy onto lots of machines for free), I believe.

 

[mosen]

To be able to play the game without needing the disc in the drive (without people being able to just share the disk and copy onto lots of machines for free), I believe.

And other features like Family Sharing:

We looked at the digital features that we talked about last year, and yeah, as a gamer there are a lot of those features that really resonated. They were smart features for people who have a lot of games and maybe play on a couple consoles and have a bunch of people in the house and want to share with friends. As I look at our monthly update roadmaps and other things, those kind of features are in our roadmap.

There’s a little bit of a challenge that you have DRM on the disk and how does that game play… We got hung up last year on kinda the enabling features, around when it has to connect to the internet and all of that, when in the end the feature that we really cared about, that people are like “I’ve got this collection of content that I can do family sharing, I can share with my friends…” There are a bunch of things we have ideas about. I haven’t given up on those ideas. There is some complexity now that you’ve got disks around that, you have DRM that you have to figure out, but it’s definitely part of our map with the overall product.

http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/06...still-on-the-roadmap-explains-the-challenges/

They are after some kind of DRM for discs.

 

[-tkf-]

To be able to play the game without needing the disc in the drive (without people being able to just share the disk and copy onto lots of machines for free), I believe.

That one is fairly simple, the console just uses a trust based system where it randomly asks for the disc to confirm ownership, as trust is built up the console asks for the disc less and less, the one time where the disc isn't provided the trust is set back or reset and needs the be rebuilt. If this happens repeatedly the option is disabled. I am sure a system could be made that would balance the hassle out with the convenience of not needing the disc. Today the disc is merely a dongle for the game that is installed from the disc.

 

[-tkf-]

And other features like Family Sharing:

[/B]

http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/06...still-on-the-roadmap-explains-the-challenges/

They are after some kind of DRM for discs.

But with family sharing you would send the disc around the world?

Seems like the DD solution is the best for that kind of service. If it´s consoles in the house they could of course just copy the games around via network.

 

[mosen]

That one is fairly simple, the console just uses a trust based system where it randomly asks for the disc to confirm ownership, as trust is built up the console asks for the disc less and less, the one time where the disc isn't provided the trust is set back or reset and needs the be rebuilt. If this happens repeatedly the option is disabled. I am sure a system could be made that would balance the hassle out with the convenience of not needing the disc. Today the disc is merely a dongle for the game that is installed from the disc.

If I know that the disc is needed to play game from first place, I will do that. But it could be annoying in long term if console randomly ask you to put discs in it, especially when you don't expect it.

But with family sharing you would send the disc around the world?

Seems like the DD solution is the best for that kind of service. If it´s consoles in the house they could of course just copy the games around via network.

No, you only need to be online and 1 of your 10 friends can play one of your games (with digital license) in your library. The game could be digital or physical (with digital license). DD isn't perfect for someone like me but accessing other friends game library and using their discs for installing games is a plus for me.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If I know that the disc is needed to play game from first place, I will do that. But it could be annoying in long term if console randomly ask you to put discs in it, especially when you don't expect it.

I agree. I'd find that really annoying not knowing when you have to put the disc in. Let's say it's been a while and the game disc is in a drawer buried under crap, and suddenly your console ask you to dig it out. Or worse yet, you haven't been asked for the disk for a month and it's slipped your mind that you might need it when you lend the disc to a friend, and go to play from your HDD only to find you can't.

For me, I'd like consistency. I have no problem putting a disc in a drive and leaving it there while playing. Swapping discs may be a mild nuisance, but it's predictable and you'd prepare for it. Random spot checks of having the disc or not would be far more annoying than not being able to play without the disc.

 

[MrFox]

Yep, ideally the copy protection must be consistent, predictable, and transparent during what is considered a normal use.

The idea of using any disc as a "download accelerator" for the DD version shouldn't be difficult to implement, I wonder what caused a problem, but maybe it wasn't worth the effort considering most people would buy the disc version anyway. That makes it a fringe case.

As everyone seem to agree, the number one reason to want an online DRM scheme, on disc purchases, is to let the disc owner play discless. I still think the best solution is to let the gamer play when logged into his account, but require the disc offline.

1. Production would require each disc to have a tamper-proof GUID to make this completely transparent.
2. Disc would work all the time, online or offline. No change here, no auth, no registration.
3. Playing discless would work only on the last console which had the disc inserted, and require an online connection while playing.
4. Inserting the Disc would invalidate any other installation from the same disc GUID as soon as the user logs into the PSN/Live account.

Trying to take advantage and cheat this system would be cumbersome at best. The person with the Disc version must always be careful never to connect online when the disc is in the drive. So the disc cannot be sold while continuing playing. This minor advantage isn't anything beyond the current PS4 sharing which allows a DD purchase to be played on the primary and secondary console at the same time. It's even more restrictive than that.

 

[AzBat]

I think I could support that method. The question though is how hard is it to produce Bluray discs each with their own unique number? Isn't that part of the spec?

It's not as good as being able to buy a disc version & converting it to a digital license. Unless that could be a separate issue & be done for a small fee like converting DVD or Blurays to Ultraviolet licenses? But do you invalidate the GUID of the disk, therefore making it a paperweight when connected online? Maybe it runs in demo mode only until you buy the full version?

Tommy McClain

 

[MrFox]

I think I could support that method. The question though is how hard is it to produce Bluray discs each with their own unique number? Isn't that part of the spec?

I don't know. We had a discussion about it last year without any conclusion. (hidden somewhere in one of the locked threads, they were locked because everyone was very respectful and always on topic ) I read that there's supposed to be a UID on each pressed disc, but I'm not sure, and the big question is how tamper proof it is. The only thing we know that is tamper proof is the BD-Mark, which is not unique to disc. There was a Sony method that leaked in some patent filings, they added an RFID to each disk, that could work but it's too late now, it would need a new drive. I also proposed the idea of a hybrid with a writeable layer which could contain GUID and keys, even keys and data for purchased DLC that would follow the disc, but it would be too expensive.

It's not as good as being able to buy a disc version & converting it to a digital license. Unless that could be a separate issue & be done for a small fee like converting DVD or Blurays to Ultraviolet licenses? But do you invalidate the GUID of the disk, therefore making it a paperweight when connected online? Maybe it runs in demo mode only until you buy the full version?

Tommy McClain

I was thinking never ever invalidate the disc. Anyone in possession of the disc gains the discless playback capability once he connects online. It would transfer naturally by tracking the GUID. It's better because the disc always retain full value and all online features. The person selling the disc would lose access to his local DD version as soon as the the new user puts the disc in the drive and connects online.

 

[-tkf-]

I agree. I'd find that really annoying not knowing when you have to put the disc in. Let's say it's been a while and the game disc is in a drawer buried under crap, and suddenly your console ask you to dig it out. Or worse yet, you haven't been asked for the disk for a month and it's slipped your mind that you might need it when you lend the disc to a friend, and go to play from your HDD only to find you can't.

For me, I'd like consistency. I have no problem putting a disc in a drive and leaving it there while playing. Swapping discs may be a mild nuisance, but it's predictable and you'd prepare for it. Random spot checks of having the disc or not would be far more annoying than not being able to play without the disc.

For example, i often have to find the disc for the game i thought was in the console, because someone else played another game. For me personal having to find a disc once every 30 or more days would be totally worth the hassle when the console asks for the disc to the game i want to play. I see no reason why i should start to hide my disc under "crap" just because i have this feature. If a friend borrowed, fine, my mistake.

The best thing about this feature is that everyone else could keep on inserting their disc when they want to play a game, the rest of us could enjoy a discless experience

 

[-tkf-]

Yep, ideally the copy protection must be consistent, predictable, and transparent during what is considered a normal use.

The idea of using any disc as a "download accelerator" for the DD version shouldn't be difficult to implement, I wonder what caused a problem, but maybe it wasn't worth the effort considering most people would buy the disc version anyway. That makes it a fringe case.

As everyone seem to agree, the number one reason to want an online DRM scheme, on disc purchases, is to let the disc owner play discless. I still think the best solution is to let the gamer play when logged into his account, but require the disc offline.

1. Production would require each disc to have a tamper-proof GUID to make this completely transparent.
2. Disc would work all the time, online or offline. No change here, no auth, no registration.
3. Playing discless would work only on the last console which had the disc inserted, and require an online connection while playing.
4. Inserting the Disc would invalidate any other installation from the same disc GUID as soon as the user logs into the PSN/Live account.

Trying to take advantage and cheat this system would be cumbersome at best. The person with the Disc version must always be careful never to connect online when the disc is in the drive. So the disc cannot be sold while continuing playing. This minor advantage isn't anything beyond the current PS4 sharing which allows a DD purchase to be played on the primary and secondary console at the same time. It's even more restrictive than that.

It´s a good solution, lots of small technical challenges that i doubt would be worth it though.

 

[RudeCurve]

I was thinking never ever invalidate the disc. Anyone in possession of the disc gains the discless playback capability once he connects online. It would transfer naturally by tracking the GUID. It's better because the disc always retain full value and all online features. The person selling the disc would lose access to his local DD version as soon as the the new user puts the disc in the drive and connects online.

But doesn't that method require you to put the disc in every time you play?

Most if not all of my game saves are in the cloud so I would have to go online anyway.

 

[AzBat]

I don't know. We had a discussion about it last year without any conclusion. (hidden somewhere in one of the locked threads, they were locked because everyone was very respectful and always on topic ) I read that there's supposed to be a UID on each pressed disc, but I'm not sure, and the big question is how tamper proof it is. The only thing we know that is tamper proof is the BD-Mark, which is not unique to disc. There was a Sony method that leaked in some patent filings, they added an RFID to each disk, that could work but it's too late now, it would need a new drive. I also proposed the idea of a hybrid with a writeable layer which could contain GUID and keys, even keys and data for purchased DLC that would follow the disc, but it would be too expensive.

I don't think a writable layer would be wise. Eventually you may no longer be able to write to that layer. The RFID would potentially be problematic due to having to license the patent. If the GUID isn't tamper proof, then the alternative is a unique code included with every disc that requires activation.

I was thinking never ever invalidate the disc. Anyone in possession of the disc gains the discless playback capability once he connects online. It would transfer naturally by tracking the GUID. It's better because the disc always retain full value and all online features. The person selling the disc would lose access to his local DD version as soon as the the new user puts the disc in the drive and connects online.

People still need to feel that they can convert a disc to digital while still having the ability to sell or trade the disc. So I guess I'm more of a proponent of 2 licenses: 1 for the disc that stays with the disc & another just for the digital version. I would even like the idea of getting a demo disc for free & then paying for it online to get the digital license. That way so I don't have to wait to download it. But it seems like pre-loading will help solve that.

Tommy McClain