*spin-off* Always on/connected... stuff

But we're not talking about music here. We're talking about games.

How many of the Atari 2600 games that I played back in the late 70's are playable by me now? None of them since my Atari 2600 no longer works.

How about my NES games? Nope can't play any of those anymore either.

How about my PS1 games? Nope can't play any of those anymore as I don't have the PS1 anymore. Same goes for my PS2 games and my Xbox 1 games.

Am I crying over it? Nope, I had my fun and I've moved on.

The only platform that still allows me to play the same games I bought 20 years ago is the PC. And that requires some bit of work with DOS emulation, etc.

So, was it wasted money for all of those games that I spent thousands of dollars on since I can no longer play them? Nope.

I'm sure there are people that still break out their NES or Atari 2600 to play the games they bought, but when I look around me at the hundreds of people I know that game. Yeah, not a single one still has their NES, Atari 2600, SNES, Super Nintendo, PS1, Genesis, Saturn, etc. There's a few that still have a PS2.

Somehow I just don't see the vast majority of console gamers really caring if they can't play a game 10 years down the line. I'm sure in their mind they like to think they might. But the reality is that almost none of them ever will.

Contrast that with music. Where people will regularly listen to whatever their favorite group was back when they were in high school.

Regards,
SB

I agree , I have a large collection of classic hardware but they are all kept alive with a lot of part harvesting and the amount of working hardware for classic hardware is dropping by the day. You may not be able to find this stuff much longer and what you do find may require more and more work to keep going.
Whats interesting to me is that the older hardware lasts longer than the newer stuff. There are very few working playstations out there and the majority of them are the last verison made.
 
I agree , I have a large collection of classic hardware but they are all kept alive with a lot of part harvesting and the amount of working hardware for classic hardware is dropping by the day. You may not be able to find this stuff much longer and what you do find may require more and more work to keep going.
Whats interesting to me is that the older hardware lasts longer than the newer stuff. There are very few working playstations out there and the majority of them are the last verison made.

You do know you can buy brand new snes, new, megadrive etc hardware?

And could you elaborate on the number of working Playstation? Afaik they just stopped producing the ps2.
 
You think they're going to keep prices down because of ad income? More than likely, they see ads as a way to maximize revenues and profits. They're not going to price based on the anticipated ad money. They're going to price on what they think will sell vs. the competition and other forms of entertainment that the target market might buy instead.

These two companies have billions in combined losses providing us one of the greatest generation ever. So I am not particularly sensitive to the ideal of them wanting to make money especially through ads.

Its one thing to make money hand over fist while trying to milk every last drop of your consumers wallets. Its another to incur losses and then trying to find ways to remedy those losses.

How do you rip a person off and become poorer while doing so?
 
These two companies have billions in combined losses providing us one of the greatest generation ever.

Err what? They may have had losses at the beginning of the generation by selling hardware at a loss and perhaps R&D going into the process of designing the hardware that is to last a generation - that is down to their business model however and I'm fairly confident over the period of the entire generation, their business model can be considered a rather big success in both cases.

If you need to rely on ads to make up for losses, then I think it's time to rethink your business model.
 
Care to back that up with actual data?

Is that not common knowledge?

Work prevents me from looking up actual numbers, but when it given the opportunity I will.

I can't recall any generation selling 250 million console units prior to the release of a newer generation.

I can recall that the biggest sales years happening during this generation.
 
Err what? They may have had losses at the beginning of the generation by selling hardware at a loss and perhaps R&D going into the process of designing the hardware that is to last a generation - that is down to their business model however and I'm fairly confident over the period of the entire generation, their business model can be considered a rather big success in both cases.

If you need to rely on ads to make up for losses, then I think it's time to rethink your business model.

If MS or Sony offered me an ad subsidized console, I might take it over paying full price. Selling consoles at a loss is a stupid business model, for sure, and selling ads is one they can recoup some of that money. Entitled gamers will throw a tantrum if they actually have to buy a console that is sold at a profit. They love to read stories about BOMs and make claims about products being a ripoff if there is even a measly markup. The solution to this problem is not obvious. It's pretty much lose-lose for MS, Sony: ads = bad, profit = bad.
 
Is that not common knowledge?

Work prevents me from looking up actual numbers, but when it given the opportunity I will.

I can't recall any generation selling 250 million console units prior to the release of a newer generation.

I can recall that the biggest sales years happening during this generation.

I'd agree more consoles than in any generation prior and more game sales. But in terms of financials I would say it's clearly false in MS's case. They certainly lost money the first couple of years, but there's little doubt they've made it back in the last 5+ years in which xbox has been profitable.

Sony is a bit more in doubt, but I think they could write off their losses as a win for blu-ray.
 
Is that not common knowledge?

Work prevents me from looking up actual numbers, but when it given the opportunity I will.

I can't recall any generation selling 250 million console units prior to the release of a newer generation.

I can recall that the biggest sales years happening during this generation.

Here's a chart I found from 2005 onward: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-microsoft-losses-on-xbox-2012-6

I couldn't find 2001-2005, but the article tells you they lost $1 billion. As far as I know, since the inception of the Xbox, I don't know if it's been overall profitable for them, and it certainly wouldn't have been had new consoles launched 2 years ago.

EDIT: Ah, I found it for Microsoft: http://www.kitguru.net/desktop-pc/c...rosoft-and-sony-lost-on-the-xbox-360-and-ps3/

In other words, the company has basically lost $3 billion so far to employ a "STOP SONY" strategy which was the entire point of the Xbox in the first place. Also, $1.15 billion of that $3 billion comes directly from a 3-year warranty write-off in 2007 because of RRoD (granted, with better understanding of lead-free solder, that's not going to be repeated).

As for Sony's Playstation Division, this chart pretty much explains it all: http://i.imgur.com/kYbJp.png

And for good measure, let's throw Nintendo into this mix to (as compared to Sony): http://i.imgur.com/P7pGx.png

However, I think it would be a fallacy to try and just repeat this current generation again in the future. The world has totally changed (I don't think I need to list why besides smartphones and tablets).
 
I'd agree more consoles than in any generation prior and more game sales. But in terms of financials I would say it's clearly false in MS's case. They certainly lost money the first couple of years, but there's little doubt they've made it back in the last 5+ years in which xbox has been profitable.

Sony is a bit more in doubt, but I think they could write off their losses as a win for blu-ray.

Nope, see my post above (in reference to Microsoft making money).
 
You can't use E&D numbers and claim its xbox. Kin, zune, winphone are all big losers in that division.

It is akin to quoting MS's overall numbers as proof of profitability.
 
Here is data from Sony's investor relation site.

Its derived from Sony's 20F documents and their historical financial excel file.

**************mil yen******USD
FY2006*****8,700********87 million*****FY06 ended before the release of the PS3
FY2007****-232,325****-2.35 billion
FY2008****-124,526****-1.26 billion
Fy2009****-58,500******-591 million
Fy2010****-55,600******-561 million

Fy2011*****29,302******296 million
Fy2012*****3,327*******34 million*****Only up to FY2012 Q3 (basically calender year 2012 Q4)

MS's data is much harder because it requires you going through each fiscal year and reading how the losses are broken down.

When I see numbers like these I don't fret over the ideal of more online ads. I rather take online ads versus a reduction in hardware BOM or a increase in retail prices across both hardware and software.
 
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What is this thread about?

Is it Online DRM, mandatory online account, remote kill-switch, planned obsolescence, or are you talking about the same "connected services" that the PS3 does, or maybe this is about corporate finalcials and stock recommendations?

I'm sorry I can't even tell.
 
Completely wrong thought process. The money is not wasted as long as you play the game. You get the enjoyment from the game you paid for. If you buy a game and then wait 8 years and there's no way to play it, then you've wasted your money. If you buy a game and enjoy it and then 8 years later can't play it, you have less value from your purchase than a game that lasts forever, but it's far from being a waste of money. Can I put a 10 yo game in my PS3 and play it? Nope. Were all those PS2 games therefore a waste of money? Nope! ;)

I think the words "Completely wrong thought process" might be a little overstatement... You are astronomically wrong in your reasoning, Shifty.
 
Doing something only while you are allowed to, destroys a substantial part of the value proposition. Perceived value vs Actual value.
 
You give your 60$-€, you PAY for something you want to keep forever if you choose to do so, and that's it.

The fact that your purchases don't carry over with you, sucks. The useless Xbox 720 and its useless games wouldn't be something to be proud of once they are done. I mean..., it would be a console without pedigree.
 
Knowing that not only your software but also your hardware aren't *everlasting* is a huge deal breaker.
 
I am fine with losing after sale support for a game, but buying an useless console? The countdown to death is on-going meaning the value you eventually achieve simply gets eaten away slowly over time. When you buy a game once -sometimes even twice- you do so in the hopes of actually having the game work as intended like in the launch day, for as long as you can or as long as you fancy how and when to play it.
 
Besides that you mention and imply that if I pay for a game I am enjoying it, where "enjoyment" is another overstatement. I bought certain games for 30$-€, for which I would gladly pay 200€ or more back in the day if I knew how good they were -to the point of having sentimental value to me-, while I paid 60$-€ for games that left me so dissatisfied that I am not sure I would play 1€ or less for them if I knew.
 
Yet I am happy that I have all those games, and my opinion on a game can change over time, from great to bad -like Doom 3 recently, I loved it in the olden days but I've got to the final boss yesterday and I haven't enjoyed the game as I did in the past- and vice versa.
 
It's all about freedom and choice.
 
By forcing persistent online connections gaming companies are not helping you remove the stress of this digitally connected world but rather adding to that stress. :???: It would cause the industry to collapse! Emails, the social networks, instant messaging, cell phones, and now even consoles, wth?

This is all things that can drain a person on a daily basis with the always constant barrage of information which is being shoved in our faces constantly. Hence why we have hobbies, and one of them is videogames.
 
Aside from that, for collectors, it takes the fun out of collecting. Who cares about a short-lived system which is dying from the very first day you have it and depending on a countdown?

We grew up to the original consoles, we had a PlayStation, or a Nintendo 64, NES, SNES, etc, and many of us kept at least one of the consoles for each generation. They've always been something you do for fun, alone or with a friend, or a family member. No need at all, to be online. And most of them still work to this day.
 
The gaming industry is shooting themselves in the foot ... not as a whole, but a heck of a whole lot of them. Always online crap, microtransactions, rip-off DLC, and things that are a drain in your finances. A loss of respect for the industry and the gamers.
 
I am hoping for a better future for gaming.
 
At the end of the day, I will choose the option that allows me to spend my spare time playing my games in peace, rather than being frustrated by server issues etc. Especially when I bought the game for the single player.
 
Yes exactly

IMO you are paying for the entertainment, play it, enjoy, move on to new games later
Another post of the same kind, omg.

There are certain games that pass the test of time.

I still replay some classics. Age of Empires 2 -I bought the HD version recently too-, F-Zero for the GC, etc etc etc. Then you have Gog.com, which has been a success so far, afaik.

Again, the idea that everyone has internet & it is always on & always unlimited is a short sighted and foolish way to do business.

I can think of so many things wrong with this.. What would happen when the next nextxbox comes out? They would have to cut the servers of the nextxbox to make way for the one after which would mean unless you are a total fanboy and made of money, you would be without a console until you can afford the next nextxbox...

And that's just the problem when the next nextxbox approaches, not including the obvious issues you will encounter on a daily basis. :???:

The main advantage for a console was putting it in a backpack with a few games & connecting it with every TV that you see. Even your grandma's old wooden frame TV.
 
If not for ads, microtransactions, DLC you'll have to accept that budgets for games will have to decrease significantly or that the price for retail games will have to go up dramatically. I'm guessing you won't be happy with either of those options.

The market is changing. Devs and publishers are going out of business left and right and the console makers can't continue to sell at a loss unless they find alternative revenue. Maybe MS sees a way out in the "always connected" model. We have no idea what they plan on doing or how it's going to work. I'll reserve my judgement until they actually announce something.
 
...
I can think of so many things wrong with this.. What would happen when the next nextxbox comes out? They would have to cut the servers of the nextxbox to make way for the one after which would mean unless you are a total fanboy and made of money, you would be without a console until you can afford the next nextxbox...

And that's just the problem when the next nextxbox approaches, not including the obvious issues you will encounter on a daily basis. :???:

Or they'll use exactly the same network with additions so they don't have to rebuild their network every time a new console comes out.


The main advantage for a console was putting it in a backpack with a few games & connecting it with every TV that you see. Even your grandma's old wooden frame TV.

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do that anymore, except for maybe grandma's old wooden tv. I mean, unless you have a beef with HD gaming and think everything should be SDTV compatible. It'd be interesting to know if either of the new consoles will even bother supporting SDTV anymore.
 
Or they'll use exactly the same network with additions so they don't have to rebuild their network every time a new console comes out.




I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do that anymore, except for maybe grandma's old wooden tv. I mean, unless you have a beef with HD gaming and think everything should be SDTV compatible. It'd be interesting to know if either of the new consoles will even bother supporting SDTV anymore.

There's little reason not to support it. SD cables extra.
 
Problem is that the price of games hasn't risen with the price of inflation: A $50 game in 2000 would be $70 today. That same $50 game in 2000 would have been $60 in 2006 (thus, it really isn't just that game development got more expensive, but the value of money decreased).

Wolfram Alpha: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=50+dollars+in+2000+adjusted+for+inflation

True. My guess is the industry thinks consumers will balk at base price increases for software and hardware, so online with dlc, digital goods, service charges is the way they've chosen to go. They'll make it a lot easier, quicker and seamless to buy add-ons this time around. DLC will probably be advertised a lot more heavily in-game at the main menu, splash screen, or even while you're playing. It was a bit clumsy this gen. For instance, in a game like Skyrim maybe they could rollout a free update that adds a new cave or castle on the map, but when you try to enter you're prompted to buy the DLC, which you can do quickly without jumping through menus etc.

It's all going to be very interesting when we see what's done and how it works, but there's no doubt this is the way it's going. People need to be online to open these types of revenues, and the devs and publishers probably need those revenues as much or more than Microsoft does.
 
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