Spacial stereo processing

[Arwin]

We had a topic on this subject a while ago, and there was a barbershop demo. That was perfect on my reasonably priced Sennheisers, was convincing both in the rear and in the front. Totally amazing.

Here: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46781&highlight=barbershop&page=2

 

[betan]

Don't buy surround headphones, they are bogus. All you do, is get extra cruddy little drivers, instead of two good quality ones.
And most likely the surround effect will be much worse than with a good software solution.

Where is this solution now though? Even if a couple of individual games support it(?), we still need 5.1/7.1 to stereo transformation through software or external adapter, and current solutions do not provide full 2d.
I suspect your dislike for 4-driver headphones stems from previously unsuccessful lines of 4-driver (2-front, 2-back) approach of early surround headphones. The fact that this trivial positioning wasn't the right, doesn't mean 4-driver solutions are not easier.

I suspect the first true 2-driver surround solution will not be through traditional headphones, but in-ear headphones.

So currently 2-driver solutions are not any less bogus.

We had a topic on this subject a while ago, and there was a barbershop demo. That was perfect on my reasonably priced Sennheisers, was convincing both in the rear and in the front. Totally amazing.

As amazing as it's, I don't hear any front localization.

 

[Squeak]

Where is this solution now though? Even if a couple of individual games support it(?), we still need 5.1/7.1 to stereo transformation through software or external adapter, and current solutions do not provide full 2d.
I suspect your dislike for 4-driver headphones stems from previously unsuccessful lines of 4-driver (2-front, 2-back) approach of early surround headphones. The fact that this trivial positioning wasn't the right, doesn't mean 4-driver solutions are not easier.

I suspect the first true 2-driver surround solution will not be through traditional headphones, but in-ear headphones.

So currently 2-driver solutions are not any less bogus.



As amazing as it's, I don't hear any front localization.

The trouble is resonance and colouring in and of the cup (even if it's open (as it should be on any serious headphone)) and that goes double for drivers that are spaced to be angled like in "surround" headphones. And don't even get me started on the interference between the drivers.
Good headphones have drivers that are very close to the ear to minimize this problem (like all Grados for example).

And there are several adapters to convert surround to headphone sound and there has been for a long time.
AFAIR Yamaha made something in the mid 80s.
Sennheiser did the "Lucas" in the mid 90s.
Currently there is a very good post processing box being sold by some company I can't remember the name of right now, but look over at Headfi, if you are interested.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

As amazing as it's, I don't hear any front localization.

That's the first binaural demo I heard, and the localisation is very good in my experience. I don't think there is any front localization as it's a barbers; they don't go in front of you at any point! It's not truly realistic - it doesn't sound exactly like I was sat in that room - but it does offer 3D localisation for audio that would be ideal for games.

 

[Arwin]

For me the guitar player is very clearly in the left-front when he finally sits down and starts strumming. They haven't done any full in front effects, but it's the only demo that I've heard that has a completely convincing rear as well as sound that is clearly in the front space.

I'd be interested to hear if you didn't hear that left-front - could be your speakers, but it could also be your brain. After all, all this depends highly on your brain's software decoder.

 

[betan]

The trouble is resonance and colouring in and of the cup (even if it's open (as it should be on any serious headphone)) and that goes double for drivers that are spaced to be angled like in "surround" headphones.

We can simply ignore those headphones, as It's pretty clear why failed,

And don't even get me started on the interference between the drivers.

The nice thing about that kind of interference is that it's predictable and thus compensatable.

That's the first binaural demo I heard, and the localisation is very good in my experience. I don't think there is any front localization as it's a barbers; they don't go in front of you at any point! It's not truly realistic - it doesn't sound exactly like I was sat in that room - but it does offer 3D localisation for audio that would be ideal for games.

Did you check the other file, or some other files?
I think the localization affected their choice of the barber setup, rather than the other way around.

For me the guitar player is very clearly in the left-front when he finally sits down and starts strumming. They haven't done any full in front effects, but it's the only demo that I've heard that has a completely convincing rear as well as sound that is clearly in the front space.

I'd be interested to hear if you didn't hear that left-front - could be your speakers, but it could also be your brain. After all, all this depends highly on your brain's software decoder.

If it's brain decoding related, it means there is a more fundamental problem.

To be honest I was expecting the problem with binaural recordings to be earlobe applying additional filters to driver sound which is difficult to avoid with "external" headphones, especially if that filter is complex enough.

However according to wikipedia the main problem is that the common 5kHz notch on typical headphones is not really suitable for emulating headtransfer function (the filter applied while transmitting sound from one side to another, simply speaking).

So yes, it maybe headphone related and could explain why all those popular surround to headphone adapters seem to fail at full 2d.

 

[Squeak]

However according to wikipedia the main problem is that the common 5kHz notch on typical headphones is not really suitable for emulating headtransfer function (the filter applied while transmitting sound from one side to another, simply speaking).

So yes, it maybe headphone related and could explain why all those popular surround to headphone adapters seem to fail at full 2d.

Rubish! All transducers of the classic build has an resonance frequency hump because of the need to suspend it in an elastic frame.
If you know it's generally 5kHz you can compensate for that in the software.

 

[betan]

Rubish! All transducers of the classic build has an resonance frequency hump because of the need to suspend it in an elastic frame.

hump? Are you simply saying all transducers amplify (or less dampen) around their natural or resonance frequency? If so everything does that.
What do you mean by "need to suspend it"?

I don't really know that you're trying to say, but that 5kHz has nothing to do with resonance frequency and is intensional for headphones only (again, according to wikipedia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording

If you know it's generally 5kHz you can compensate for that in the software.

Only if you know how much dampening occurs.

While wikipedia may not be the most reliable source in town when it comes to uncommon knowledge, I can believe a need for dampening to compensate for ear canal "band pass" filtering despite being different from person to person.

 

[Mobius1aic]

First of all, this seems perfectly on topic to me.
Second, currently what's minimal 3d surround solution 3 layer 22.2? I don't really know.

For headphones possibly 6 speakers would be more than enough, because in addition to phase shifting and filtering tricks that can be used safely, headphones also have ear lobe positioning advantage over external surround systems.

Though current 2-speaker headphones may not provide full 2d localization, I wouldn't be surprised if future stereo headphones provide more than satisfactory 3d localization by emulating any filtering auditory system does based on position of sound source.

Is there a reason you think that's not possible?

Headphones are a good solution, but like stated by others, you have the issue of others listening, having a cord (a cordless solution would be extremely expensive, not to mention probably crap battery efficiency). As for a true 3D setup I envision it somewhat like a cube for 3D effect, with a speaker at each vertice, one half way along each line segment, and one in the center of each square. Effectively a 26.1 speaker setup with a woofer of some kind(no speaker in the center). As for getting a good approximation I can see a set up with 2 front, 2 back, 1 side, as well as two "bottom" and two "top" speakers in order to represent proper stereo sound, a 10.1 setup. With proper sound mixing you could lower the total speaker number and use 2 speakers in combination to simulate a sound coming from a certain direction (I'm not too sure how well this could work, but it's an idea). As for me, I'm not a sound whore, and even though I got a 5.1 speaker system for my computer, I only use the front 3 and the sub. My big thing is not speaker direction, or surround sound necessarily but quality and clarity of the sound itself. My "3.1" setup does great for this and I'm very happy with it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I found that Uncharted's spacial audio was with the Dolby Pro Logic II option. In headphones, along with the headphone option, there was a discrete jump for the audio when it comes from behind. Dolby Pro Logic 2 isn't an option in the standard PS3 audio setup list of supported formats, so I guess this is a title by title implementation.

 

[patsu]

I recently purchased a pair of quality headphones (Senn. HD650) and THIS to go along with them. It basically applies "Dolby Headphone" processing to a 5.1 surround signal sent to it, and works with any pair of stereo phones.

How much did you pay for the HD650 ? US$499 ?

I am looking at Denon DH 2000, BeyerDynamic DT880, or Sony MDR-DS7000 (It's the same as the MGS4 one. Probably lower quality than the other 2 because it's wireless. MDR-SA5000 is way too expensive !). Budget is around US$300. Will probably buy one over the weekend, plus DualShock 3 for gaming

 

[ShadowRunner]

How much did you pay for the HD650 ? US$499 ?

I am looking at Denon DH 2000, BeyerDynamic DT880, or Sony MDR-DS7000 (It's the same as the MGS4 one. Probably lower quality than the other 2 because it's wireless. MDR-SA5000 is way too expensive !). Budget is around US$300. Will probably buy one over the weekend, plus DualShock 3 for gaming

I paid £180 for the HD650's brand new from ebay.
If your not going to buy a headphone amp to go with them some of these high end phones will not sound very loud from standard equipment, just something to keep in mind(my HD650s dont sound loud enough from the headphone socket on my Z5500, but sound great from a seperate amp.).
Are you after a surround sound set? Sony MDR-DS7000 is the only set you have listed that comes with the decoder (as far as i know), the other 2 sets will sound better the only reason to go with the sonys would be for the unit that comes with them.
I cancelled my order for the MDR-DS7000 at the last minute and went for the HD650s + standalone decoder. Aparrently the surround effect of the sonys was nowhere near as good as Dolby Headphone.

For around $300 i would personaly go for the Sennheiser HD-595(will be great even without amp) and JVC SU-DH1, you wouldnt be disapointed. Hope this helps.

 

[patsu]

Brought my kid to terrorize Metreon today. Unfortunately, SonyStyle, SF does not carry MDR-DS7000 (MSRP is $300). I found MDR-DS6000 instead but it's not on display for test hearing.

I also found Acoustic Research's 5.1 wireless headphone (MSRP is $350). This one has 3 drivers per ear (So it's a true surround sound headphone).

After reading from the net, I am more inclined to get Beyerdynamic DT880 or Denon AH-D2000. There is no review on DS7000 yet. The other two are rated extremely highly and look comfortable for long use (especially DT880). OTOH, I like Denon's closed design and stronger bass for gaming (according to the reviews). Like what you said, both will need a headphone amp to drive. They can be bought from the net for US$300+ to $400+ with the separate amp/surround sound processor.

I also read about Sennheiser HD-595 but don't like the look. It doesn't seem comfortable compared to the above two. Sound-wise, it's right up there with the best though.

I keep toggling between DT880 and AH-D2000. Need to find a pair to see for myself.