Sony to make game-playing phone

wco81

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703502804575101013088128250.html

This is not their upcoming Android phone, which will be able to play games sold on the Android market.

No this will be a phone which can play Playstation games. Whether that means PSP games or PS One games is not yet clear.

But it's one of several gadgets which will tap into a Sony-branded online service which will launch this year to compete against iTunes, offering music, movies, and games. They have not unveiled the name of the service.

Another device will blur the distinction between PSP and a netbook.

The speculation is that these devices will rely solely on electronic content distribution, as the iPhone does. Article suggests PSPGo has not sold well, because of its $250 price.

But the other part is that it seems the cheapest games start at $5 for the PSPGo?

What are the chances that the new devices and the content will be price-competitive?

If it is a PSP phone, it seems too little too late, not to mention trotting out the PSP in yet another guise isn't going to turn around its fortunes or change the fact that the market has pretty much dismissed the PSP as pretty much done.
 
I'm not a fan of the PSP Phone idea anyway - in my mind it's a dead end. PSP Go is definitely over priced, no doubt, but I wouldn't view this as a reaction to it. My reasons for thinking a PSP Phone is misguided: who owns the PSP to begin with? It's either folk like myself that would have a different, purposed phone to begin with rather than a 'pro' gaming phone, the teen/college set, or younger kids who's parents are probably not looking to spend money on high-end phones and plans for their kids. That middle set *might* be drawn to it, who knows. But I don't think it's a viable business move.

The iPhone, if it is to be viewed as a competitor, is one because it offers gaming successfully - but as an ancillary - draw. I would not buy an iPhone for its gaming aspect, but if I owned one I would take advantage and probably question my need for other portables. I do not own an iPhone I should mention.

Anyway as for this nameless device the WSJ references, it will be interesting to see. Maybe a more 'small game' cross-platform effort dedicated to phones and other devices, vs offering PSOne/PSP/PSN titles. Or to the extent that it's the later, a device that doesn't paint itself overly into the 'phone' corner... where it will probably fail. A "multi" use device though, maybe there's legs there.
 
Might be ironic if their Android phone sold more games than their own game-playing phone did.

Due to the lack of info, the hardware itself is not so interesting (unless, say, they have exclusive technologies like 3D without glasses for the phone).

What's more interesting is the phone OS. Like iPad reusing iPhone OS and games, Sony is likely to reuse PSP or even PS1/2 games on the new phone platform (e.g., PSP Minis). That way, they can cushion the developers' investments.

Android is Google's platform. I don't think Sony will spend its marketing dollars there.

I probably won't get a PSP Phone, but I may be interested in something for my kid.
 
The PSP Minis are still ridiculously overprised compared to ipod/iphone games. It would be ok if there were €5 games if there were also €1 games, and the €5 games were of same caliber as €5 games in the app store. Also, I haven't heard of a single MIni's game that would be a "must buy", and there are hardly any reviews of them anywhere, so you'd be spending your mony blindly hoping the game was worth it.
 
I'm not sold on the idea that gameplaying phones is the way to go.

Any regular phone has too small buttons/controls and too small a screen to be ergonomic when used as a game playing device.

Any phone sized up to be at least somewhat comfortable when used as a portable games device is TOO LARGE to be comfortably used as a phone. Even the iPhone, which has virtually no surface area dedicated to physical inputs, makes you look like a complete tw*t when holding it up to your face so you can speak into it.

Of course, a slider design like the PSP Go could help reduce the width and length of the device in phone mode, but this also adds thickness, weight, cost and fragility. Drop it on the floor, and it's liable to break apart at the seam...
 
I'm not a fan of the PSP Phone idea anyway - in my mind it's a dead end. PSP Go is definitely over priced, no doubt, but I wouldn't view this as a reaction to it. My reasons for thinking a PSP Phone is misguided: who owns the PSP to begin with? It's either folk like myself that would have a different, purposed phone to begin with rather than a 'pro' gaming phone, the teen/college set, or younger kids who's parents are probably not looking to spend money on high-end phones and plans for their kids. That middle set *might* be drawn to it, who knows. But I don't think it's a viable business move.

The iPhone, if it is to be viewed as a competitor, is one because it offers gaming successfully - but as an ancillary - draw. I would not buy an iPhone for its gaming aspect, but if I owned one I would take advantage and probably question my need for other portables. I do not own an iPhone I should mention.

Anyway as for this nameless device the WSJ references, it will be interesting to see. Maybe a more 'small game' cross-platform effort dedicated to phones and other devices, vs offering PSOne/PSP/PSN titles. Or to the extent that it's the later, a device that doesn't paint itself overly into the 'phone' corner... where it will probably fail. A "multi" use device though, maybe there's legs there.

Its for people who have a PSP and a smartphone. I don't see how if you are in this crowd, you wouldn't be at least intrigue about a device that serves functions that you are currently using with two devices. Ultimately, its up to Sony to offer a compelling device. Ergonomics, styling, service and performance will dictate whether or not a PSP phone will be a success. But given that the software service infrastructure is already there and the PSP phone will have the caveat of being a more robust gaming machine, I think its a smart ideal.

80% of apps downloaded to the iphone are games and entertainment apps. Weather apps are the most used followed by Facebook and then games. Weather and Facebook apps are basically an inherent features of all new smartphones but games is the one area that the PSP can differentiate itself from others. The cellphone aspect actually helps push a DD only model because even without hardwire broadband in your home, you can still have access to the games and software through 3g.

Furthermore, smartphones are penetrating the gaming market at an alarming rate and there will come a time where you will have smartphones mimicking the capabilities of handhelds. Smartphones have access to a level of subidization that handhelds can't match meaning that the gaming tech that can go into smartphones can actually be more robust than any handheld tech at reasonable retail price. Sony can take a $500 PSP phone sell it to cell phone companies for $450 who then sell it to consumers for $200 dollars and a 2 year contract. Sony then only has to recoup $50 dollars from the consumer through software sales, while a $80-$100 a month 2 year contract will produce $1900 to $2400 dollars in revenue for the cell phone companies (easily recovering the $250 investment). Apple gets like a 30% cut from app sales, meaning Apples gets $8 for every $27 dollars spent on apps where Sony needs full fledged packaged $60 titles to see $8 in royalty fees.
 
Its for people who have a PSP and a smartphone. I don't see how if you are in this crowd, you wouldn't be at least intrigue about a device that serves functions that you are currently using with two devices. Ultimately, its up to Sony to offer a compelling device. Ergonomics, styling, service and performance will dictate whether or not a PSP phone will be a success. But given that the software service infrastructure is already there and the PSP phone will have the caveat of being a more robust gaming machine, I think its a smart ideal.

80% of apps downloaded to the iphone are games and entertainment apps. Weather apps are the most used followed by Facebook and then games. Weather and Facebook apps are basically an inherent features of all new smartphones but games is the one area that the PSP can differentiate itself from others. The cellphone aspect actually helps push a DD only model because even without hardwire broadband in your home, you can still have access to the games and software through 3g.

Furthermore, smartphones are penetrating the gaming market at an alarming rate and there will come a time where you will have smartphones mimicking the capabilities of handhelds. Smartphones have access to a level of subidization that handhelds can't match meaning that the gaming tech that can go into smartphones can actually be more robust than any handheld tech at reasonable retail price. Sony can take a $500 PSP phone sell it to cell phone companies for $450 who then sell it to consumers for $200 dollars and a 2 year contract. Sony then only has to recoup $50 dollars from the consumer through software sales, while a $80-$100 a month 2 year contract will produce $1900 to $2400 dollars in revenue for the cell phone companies (easily recovering the $250 investment). Apple gets like a 30% cut from app sales, meaning Apples gets $8 for every $27 dollars spent on apps where Sony needs full fledged packaged $60 titles to see $8 in royalty fees.


I would add that text messaging and data is far more important to a growing number than actual phone function. It's here that the iPhone is vulnerable.
 
Its for people who have a PSP and a smartphone. I don't see how if you are in this crowd, you wouldn't be at least intrigue about a device that serves functions that you are currently using with two devices.

Because to be a true 'PSP' phone, you would need dedicated gaming buttons, and any device I can envision with such, is either a) unwieldy, or b) embarrassing. This constant comparison to the iPhone is a total boondoggle IMO - yes, 80% of 'apps' downloaded are games, but no one is buying the iPhone for its gaming capabilities alone. They are buying it because it is the iPhone, with all the prestige, glamor, and utility that conveys. It just so happens that after you have the however-many functional apps you feel you require, the mind naturally goes towards entertainment. 80% of the apps I've ever downloaded on any phone are probably games - but they are not the reason I have the phones. And yes, the iPhone may eat into the sale of handheld gaming devices by owners of the device - that is just the way things go. I think Sony would be ill-advised to try and take the fight to the smartphone realm with a device built around a core gaming pedigree; my reasons are as stated in my first sentence. I couldn't even begin to fathom the world in which I take a known-gaming associated device out of my pocket and get on it in front of a client. Maybe you guys envision just such a world, I don't know. Of course nor do I know anyone's age and nor am I asking.

Furthermore, smartphones are penetrating the gaming market at an alarming rate and there will come a time where you will have smartphones mimicking the capabilities of handhelds.

Yes. But that's simply a truism of the increased compute density being achieved; for Sony to take the fight into smartphones, it would mean their own OS effort with a huge emphasis on NON gaming applications. Do you see Sony waging... and winning... that fight? Against the players already crowding the space? I don't.

...subsidy talk...

As for the subsidy advantage, I just don't see it. Maybe in Europe where everything is GSM, ok. But in the US where the device would be wrapped up in carrier exclusivity agreements, GSM vs CDMA versions, and erratic price moves - not to mention constantly changing hardware specs in order to keep up with the other smartphones - how is this a positive model for the PSP to transition to? As far as "big" game development goes, devs would still need to cater to a set hardware spec on a multi-year basis - yearly hardware advances would be moot save for the non-computing apps, where again I am reticent to think Sony would rock things down.

If you are telling me that the PSP will lose marketshare to smartphones, I will say two things. Firstly: yes (from a market trend standpoint). Secondly, well, they can grow the business organically anyway so maybe not. But ultimately if Sony is going to be a gaming juggernaut in the phone space, it's going to require an effort completely different than the porting of PSP. It will require a cross-device "light" development platform/effort independent of Playstation Portable.
 
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Whats perplexing is that Sony or MS really could of been the first to bring a Iphone competitor to the market.

Sony already makes phones and handhelds and had they own music store, while MS already had a mobile OS, Zune and app store. Yet they got beat out by a search engine company to deliver a next gen mobile OS and phone thats comparable to the Iphone.
 
Because to be a true 'PSP' phone, you would need dedicated gaming buttons, and any device I can envision with such, is either a) unwieldy, or b) embarrassing. This constant comparison to the iPhone is a total boondoggle IMO - yes, 80% of 'apps' downloaded are games, but no one is buying the iPhone for its gaming capabilities alone. It just so happens that after you have the however-many functional apps you feel you require, the mind naturally goes towards entertainment. And yes, the iPhone may eat into the sale of handheld gaming devices by owners of the device - that is just the way things go. I think Sony would be ill-advised to try and take the fight to the smartphone realm with a device built around a core gaming pedigree; my reasons are as stated in my first sentence. I couldn't even begin to fathom the world in which I take a known-gaming associated device out of my pocket and get on it in front of a client. Maybe you guys envision just such a world, I don't know.

Some blackberrys and the G1a have a whole dedicated keyboard on their phone. Dedicated buttons aren't a obstacle. A touch based keyboard with dedicated button layout similar to the PSP Go isn't going to be a detriment to the PSP phone.

Noone typically buys a PC for gaming alone either, but we never considered a PC not a competitor of consoles. Furthermore, you're not buying a PSP phone strictly for gaming but the advantage is you get a true handheld on your phone.

Its make no sense for Sony not to venture into this territory. Out of all the competitors of the iphone, MS and Sony make the perfect companies to enter into the competition. Sony builds phones, mp3 players and handhelds and sales apps through a dedicated online service. MS builds mobile OSes, the Zune and also has an app store. Its illogical for them not to enter the fray because most of the infrastructure (software and hardware) is already built out.

Yes. But that's simply a truism of the increased compute density being achieved; for Sony to take the fight into smartphones, it would mean their own OS effort with a huge emphasis on NON gaming applications. Do you see Sony waging... and winning... that fight? I don't.

They have to compete because ultimately I believe smartphones are going to be the ultimate device and the device that most people can't live without. The whole dynamic for entertainment has literally shifted from the living room into your palm. Sony nor MS can afford not to enter into this market. In fact, they already compete in the market, so whats the problem with being more synergistic with their product lines.

As for the subsidy advantage, I just don't see it. Maybe in Europe where everything is GSM, ok. But in the US where the device would be wrapped up in carrier exclusivity agreements, GSM vs CDMA versions, and erratic price moves - not to mention constantly changing hardware specs in order to keep up with the other smartphones - how is this a positive model for the PSP to transition to?

If you are telling me that the PSP will lose marketshare to smartphones, I will say two things. Firstly: yes. Secondly, well, they can grow the business organically anyway so maybe not. But ultimately if Sony is going to be a gaming juggernaut in the phone space, it's going to require an effort completely different than the porting of PSP.

I remember reading that ATT was paying more $700 for each Iphone and selling at $299 to consumers. There is no way Sony or MS could afford to subidize at that great of level. Apple can afford to release newer faster version of the Iphone because its not eating the subidization, thats the responsibiites of AT&T. Secondly upgrading the GPU wouldn't be necessary and upgrading the CPU wouldn't be problematic if the phones prove to be successful. Its not like the Iphone get upgraded graphics every year and break software compatibility with old apps to the point thats patches can't be managed.

If the Iphone and Android can exist with the dynamics of the cell phone market, why would it be difficult for Sony and MS who already operate in this market? Whats inherent about having robust gaming capabilities that makes competing difficult?
 
Some blackberrys and the G1a have a whole dedicated keyboard on their phone. Dedicated buttons aren't a obstacle. A touch based keyboard with dedicated button layout similar to the PSP Go isn't going to be a detriment to the PSP phone.

You and I are probably seeing different devices in our heads - if an elegant phone materializes complete with shoulder buttons and slide-out gaming pad in a form factor that consumers don't consider misguided, I'll consider myself corrected on this point. I, however, would never buy it to be my primary communications device for reason 'b' in sentence 1 of my above post. ;)

Furthermore, you're not buying a PSP phone strictly for gaming but the advantage is you get a true handheld on your phone.

Who is that an advantage to though? I really think we need to address in full the target demographic, what their priorities are, and who is funding their phone purchase.

Its make no sense for Sony not to venture into this territory. Out of all the competitors of the iphone, MS and Sony make the perfect companies to enter into the competition. Sony builds phones, mp3 players and handhelds and sales apps through a dedicated online service. MS builds mobile OSes, the Zune and also has an app store. Its illogical for them not to enter the fray because most of the infrastructure (software and hardware) is already built out.

Honestly I find it surprising you mention MS as a candidate to enter the space, and in the same thought point to their mobile OS. They are one and the same - MS is already in the space, and was for much longer than Apple. It's not MS that needs to come up with a competitor, it's Apple which actually did - to MS, Blackberry, Symbian, etc... it's now MS playing catch-up... which they are, via Windows Mobile 7.

As for Sony, it's wrong to think of them as having a phone division, music division, and gaming division all with seamless leadership. The phone business is a J-V, the music division was as well until recently, and the gaming division has always done its own thing. It's only recently that focused synergies have been explored, and honestly, how would one rate those efforts? Results are slow to come, that's my take, especially wrt to this multi multi year PSN rollout. In fact with Sony let's skip the 'obviousness' of the phone altogether, and point instead to the obviousness of a robust digital music player with corresponding robust content delivery system. They had every reason in the world to have the 'Walkman' name be the name that 'iPod/iPhone' is today, but they dropped the ball back at the beginning.

They have to compete because ultimately I believe smartphones are going to be the ultimate device and the device that most people can't live without. The whole dynamic for entertainment has literally shifted from the living room into your palm. Sony nor MS can afford not to enter into this market. In fact, they already compete in the market, so whats the problem with being more synergistic with their product lines.

Yes, smartphones are going to be the device that most people can't live without. Whereas handheld gaming devices, definitely people can live without. Which is sort of my point really. Sony and MS are both already in this market, it's just that a purposed gaming handheld has nothing to do with it. MS via OS as they have always been, and Sony via handset manufacture. Think of SonyEriccson as a Vaio in the phone space rather than as an SCE.

I remember reading that ATT was paying more $700 for each Iphone and selling at $299 to consumers. There is no way Sony or MS could afford to subidize at that great of level. Apple can afford to release newer faster version of the Iphone because its not eating the subidization, thats the responsibiites of AT&T. Secondly upgrading the GPU wouldn't be necessary and upgrading the CPU wouldn't be problematic if the phones prove to be successful. Its not like the Iphone get upgraded graphics every year and break software compatibility with old apps to the point thats patches can't be managed.

Two things. Firstly, the outrageous subsidies at the phone's launch are actually part of my original point: carrier exclusivity agreements and diverse hardware. So, if the PSP phone is available "only on T Mobile" for the first year or something, is that a benefit to Sony? By the way, do you see them as being the content gatekeeper in this scenario, or do you see open development? I'm just wondering where you see the PSP phone making its money. Back to this though, $700 was obvious insane money-grabbing on Apple's part as well - a price that could only be commanded due to promised exclusivity in tandem with the insane hype of the thing. Sony is not getting $700 for a PSP phone, that much is for sure.

If the Iphone and Android can exist with the dynamics of the cell phone market, why would it be difficult for Sony and MS who already operate in this market? Whats inherent about having robust gaming capabilities that makes competing difficult?

I just don't see where the iPhone and Android are distinct from Sony and MS - MS7 (and 6.1, 6.5) is to Android and iPhone as those two are to each other. As for Sony, yes, they are putting out an Android handset soon. I guess I'm just not following the consternation here. But I would counter to the premise that, what is inherent to a gaming-centric phone that a similarly spec'd "non" gaming phone would not be able to achieve? What is the effort Sony would put into its mobile games library that would render similar games impossible on similarly spec'd competing handsets?

I personally think that Sony's efforts in this space have to be via a branching and extension of the PSN network/platform as a value add to its products. And the more robust they can make it, the more of a positive feedback loop it will create. Down the path of dedicated niche hardware lies danger.
 
Ok I'm back - Dobwal I've been thinking about what you've been saying, and I have a revised vision. It's not a vision per se of what Sony should do, but of what they could do.

Firstly we stop thinking about the PSP as a dedicated gaming device - it's really not anyway. We think of it as a multimedia device which was a precursor to the iPod Touch. Now we view PSP2 as just this - an iPod Touch competitor with a gaming bent via physical keys and an iTunes equivalent via the PSN. The later part is absolutely crucial of course, and we'll see what we see in terms of the growth their as the years go on. I call the PSP2, the SonyOne. Not because of the NexusOne, whose name sucks, but simply because I think SonyOne sounds cool independently.

Games, downloads, video, media, music, 'apps,' etc etc... the game keys are slideout, the screen capacitive, storage expandable via whatever standard Sony is excited about at the time. Cost should be as per a PSP2; ideally $200-300, and preferably on the lower end.

Next up the SonyTalk, which is the phone version of the above. Just add phone. And with all of these, I would see a launch on 4G, if only for a more unified radio spec via LTE.

But, again, I don't see the 'SonyTalk' as having mass appeal, because the dedicated gaming keys would be seen as extremely superfluous by the majority of the iPhone set. For this reason, we also have the 'SonyLite,' which is a touchscreen sans slide out gamepad. In this vision as well, PSP2 games equate directly to being PSN games, with the distinction that there is a split in the catalog; non-'gaming' devices being unable to purchase and play titles that require those physical keys. Should allow for decent differentiation while keeping development tools standardized. PSP1 games would run on an emulation layer on the devices that sport physical keys, and be unplayable on the non-keyed devices. OS would be the same across devices, as would baseline hardware (maybe some higher clocks for the dedicated gaming devices given the isolation of their expanded title base).

Another device in this lineup would be the 'SonyType,' which would in my mind replace the Mylo. It would be a MID featuring the same as the rest, but with a physical keyboard to slide out rather than a gaming pad. It would support the same reduced 'PSP2' library (aka PSN library) that the other devices support, as well as all the productivity apps, etc. Could be available with or without a 4G radio.
 
You and I are probably seeing different devices in our heads - if an elegant phone materializes complete with shoulder buttons and slide-out gaming pad in a form factor that consumers don't consider misguided, I'll consider myself corrected on this point. I, however, would never buy it to be my primary communications device for reason 'b' in sentence 1 of my above post. ;)...


...I personally think that Sony's efforts in this space have to be via a branching and extension of the PSN network/platform as a value add to its products. And the more robust they can make it, the more of a positive feedback loop it will create. Down the path of dedicated niche hardware lies danger.

I don't see the PSP phone as being the only PSP product from Sony, The PSP phone won't need to drive 50 million in sales, so I am not as concerned about the level of fragmentation that exist between carriers in Europe and the US. Sony can drive the market with a traditional handheld while offering a PSP phone that can supply the needs of highend or hardcore users. Furthermore, a niche market isn't much of a danger especially to Sony because, they would bascially add SE tech for phone functionality while taking advantage of already existing services and technology. A PSP phone makes sense because it requires very little investment compared to building the hardware and software from the ground up.

You do know that PSP and SE phones can use the same software media manager similar to Itunes called Media Go which is linked to PlayNow (SE's music store) and the PS store. Phil Harrison at the 2007 E3 showed off a SE phone using a XMB interface and talked about PS Home intergration as well. Its not like there exist no relationship between the two division.

The Iphone recreated the smartphone market and MS scrapped WM6 and reintroduced a WM7 OS and interface to better compete against the Iphone and Android. Google doesn't even charge for Android and WM7 will have a hard time gaining ground on Android because MS will charge a fee. Google couldn't stop AT&T from stripping the Google Search widget out their Android based phone and replacing it with Yahoo Search nor can they stop carriers from creating their own apps store. I don't think MS can stop those actions either just with the WM7 without carriers and manufacturers favoring Android. Google just released the Nexus One, so even they see the advantages of having their own hardware.

I think that the 360 and PS3 userbase will be greatly interested in smartphones based around their respective console in terms of intergrated services and full fledged handheld games. How many people carry their psp everywhere and everyday? How many people carry their cellphones everywhere and everyday? Utility of a PSP based smartphones isn't simply more utility through additional features but also greater utility because naturally the psp phone will be more readily carried and available.
 
It would be cool if SONY designed a new PSP2 with an optional cellular module...

That'd be fricken awesome, if possible. It doesn't really have the space for optional components though.

Although, there is a wifi card that was built into a SIM card, so I could be wrong

The PSP Minis are still ridiculously overprised compared to ipod/iphone games.

That's because:
-ESRB charges like $10,000 to rate PSP games, but not iphone games
-PSP's dev kit costs $1,500 cause it's an actual hardware simulator. iphone's costs $100 a year, and is a download that runs on any Mac. And the emulator is no where near as accurate.
-Devs chose the price, to avoid the iphone race-to-the-bottom pricing that ruined game budgets

Noone typically buys a PC for gaming alone either,

Yes they do. See AlienWare PCs specifically.

(unless, say, they have exclusive technologies like 3D without glasses for the phone).

They do actually. I wish upon the gaming gods that PSP2 uses it.

Sony is likely to reuse PSP or even PS1/2 games on the new phone platform (e.g., PSP Minis). That way, they can cushion the developers' investments.

Exactly, BC is a must. And given the lackluster amount of content on PSN, BC is nigh useless without UMD.

To the guy who said dedicated gaming controls are a must. I agree a thousand times. My ipod touch makes a great PDA, a gaming machine, not so much. My Tapwave Zodiac, does both however...
 
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Firstly we stop thinking about the PSP as a dedicated gaming device - it's really not anyway. We think of it as a multimedia device which was a precursor to the iPod Touch....
Next up the SonyTalk, which is the phone version of the above. Just add phone....

"Originally Posted by RudeCurve: It would be cool if SONY designed a new PSP2 with an optional cellular module..."

That'd be fricken awesome, if possible. It doesn't really have the space for optional components though.
Although, there is a wifi card that was built into a SIM card, so I could be wrong

If only PSP2 gave us Skype and/or Voip/SIP clientapp without hacking I would be happy.
 
Yes they do. See AlienWare PCs specifically.

Explains what typical about buying a PC strictly for just gaming. I didn't know that AlienWare PCs have no PC functionality other than gaming.

Buying a Alienware PC would be similar to buying a PSP based phone not a gaming only PSP.
 
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