Some question about Xbox/GC hardware

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Is the reason the GC can't support larger than 480p do to the onboard framebuffer? If so wouldn't the GC have a hard time running any games with 32bpp even at 640x480?

Is the NV20/NV2A frame buffer compression really 4:1?

What sets apart the flipper from the Geforce 256 in terms of power and performance? Is it really any more powerful than the Geforce 256 or Geforce 2?

What are some methods of dealing with OD within the NV2A? Are there any methods of deffering costly OD?
 
Is the reason the GC can't support larger than 480p do to the onboard framebuffer?

Yes.

If so wouldn't the GC have a hard time running any games with 32bpp even at 640x480?

Absolutely, particularly since the GC doesn't support 32bit ;) (24bit).

Is the NV20/NV2A frame buffer compression really 4:1?

Huh? Never heard that one before. ZCompression, texture comrpession etc, but I'm not familiar with a 4:1 fb compression(although I may have missed it).

What sets apart the flipper from the Geforce 256 in terms of power and performance? Is it really any more powerful than the Geforce 256 or Geforce 2?

TEV- It offers some of the flexibility of the Pixel Shaders that the NV2A packs, and the embedded RAM give Flipper a huge edge in certain areas over the NV1X products.

What are some methods of dealing with OD within the NV2A?

Render front to back. The NV2A will eliminate a rather decent amount of OD when rendering front to back(under certain synthetic tests the performance boost can be in the x00% range under demanding enough settings). How much good this will do you on a ~GTexel chip running @640x480 60FPS max I'm not so sure.
 
Actually, the reason why Cube won't output higher than 480p isn't because of lack of RAM (front buffer is stored in main RAM and there's 24 mb of that) but because of a built-in limitation in the display controller.
 
ok.....so which is it restriction or limitation?

Ben are you saying the flipper is limited to 16bpp?

Cybermac even if it could cal from its main ram would it have to buffer the next frame into the Frame buffer cache anyway? Wouldn't this bring about bandwidth problems?
 
Is the NV20/NV2A frame buffer compression really 4:1?

XBox doesn't have framebuffer compression. It does have Z-buffer compression, which is 4:1.

A few things you might want to know:

4:1 is only a maximum number, sometimes the Z compression won't work at all, sometimes it'll work half way and sometimes it may just compress at full 4:1, and many levels in between. So on average its more like 2:1 compression.

Also the compression is for bandwidth only, so the compression of the z-buffer does not mean that the Z-buffer takes up less ram space, it just uses less bandwidth for the Z-buffer.

What sets apart the flipper from the Geforce 256 in terms of power and performance? Is it really any more powerful than the Geforce 256 or Geforce 2?

There are allot of things that set Flipper appart from those chips. Here's a few things Flipper has that sets it appart from Geforce 1/2 and even 3/4 in some cases:

- On-chip 2mb Z and framebuffer with 7.5gb dedicated bandwidth:

Geforce 1 and 2 have nothing like this. Geforce 3 and 4 do have Z- compression, which is similar in some ways in that it saves some Z-buffer bandwidth, but have nothing like the on-chip framebuffer. The advantages of the on-chip cache is that the main ram only ever gets the final frame and Z buffers. So overdraw does not effect main memory bandwidtt at all, neither does FSAA. Also the on-chip cache could be used for other bandwidth intensive things like stencil buffering ect since it has allot of bandwidth dedicated to it.

- 1mb texture cache with 10.5gb dedicated bandwidth which can hold compressed textures:

Of course all chips have a texture cache, and size isn't always everything :) (1mb is massive compared to most other chips). But another thing that sets this appart from Geforce line of chips is the support of texture compression. It can hold a compressed texture in the cache abd only decompress the parts that are being worked on at that time. So its bandwidth is effectively 63gb and its effective size is 6mb!

Geforce 1/2/3/4, texture cache's don't support texture compression AFAIK (NV2A's doesn't so I would think its very similar with Geforce 4 and below).

- Early Z check HSR:

Geforce 1 and 2 don't support this. Of course Geforce 3 and 4 do.

- TEV, basically a pixel shader with extremely flexible texture reads (more so then NV2A's) but slightly less flexible combines then NV2A:

Again Geforce 1 and 2 don't support this and Geforce 3 and 4 has something similar, better in some ways and worse in others.

- Multi-Sample AA:

Basically fillrate free AA. Geforce 1 and 2 don't support this and Geforce 3 and 4 do.

- 8 layer multi-texturing:

Flipper can output 8 texture layers in a single pass. Geforce 1 can only do 1 per pass AFAIR and Geforce 2 can only do 2 per pass. Geforce 3 and 4 can do 4 per pass.

BTW, don't think I'm claiming Flipper is the most advanced chip out there, because its not. After all I'm only mentioning some of its strenghs here. Of course it does have some weaknesses, especially compared to Geforce 4 (not so much compared to Geforce 2). For instance, as you know, one of its weaknesses is that its use of on-chip ram for frame and Z buffers limits the size of those buffers. Which limits its resolution/colour depth.

Basically Flipper has allot of bandwidth saving tech that Geforce 1 and 2 didn't have and also its texturing is allot more flexible then Geforce 1/2. As I said its allot closer to Geforce 3 and 4.
 
IT may be closer to the radeon 7500 but i have a hardtime believing its closer to the Geforce 3/4 in terms of raw power/performance.
 
I wouldnt be so sure about the ' Nv2a has no framebuffer compression' bit if you're being nitpicky.

Geforce 3 and Geforce 4 both do. There's a patent on their system actually (although its nothing like what Nv30 or R300 have).

It has to do with the way they arrange their framebuffer in tiles, and save memory access
 
IT may be closer to the radeon 7500 but i have a hardtime believing its closer to the Geforce 3/4 in terms of raw power/performance.

Well I've shown you allot of reasons right there why its allot closer to Geforce 3 and 4 then Geforce 2 (I just updated the post with a few more features).

I'm not saying its as powerful/ feature rich as a Geforce 4, I'm saying its allot closer to the power and functionality of a Geforce 4 then it is to a Geforce 2.

I'm not really sure about the original Radeon. It did have Z-buffer compression and hierarchical Z-buffering, as well as some sort of pixel shader that never got supported in DX8. So its actual functionality and power might be somewhere near Flipper (the 7500 model anyway). I really don't know. But in the end, no API's supported allot of its functionality so the end product isn't really up to Flipper AFAICS.
 
It should also be mentioned that Nintendo don't usually disclose everything about their hardware. Some guy from ATI that was interviewed by IGNcube said that many of Flipper's features hadn't been made public. So feature wise I would guess that it is considerably beyond the GF1/2 line of chipsets.

For example, the guy said that Cel-shading on the GC isn't done the "usual way", I'm not even sure what that is, but that it was an actual chipset feature.

IT may be closer to the radeon 7500 but i have a hardtime believing its closer to the Geforce 3/4 in terms of raw power/performance.

I remember hearing on this forum a while ago that with 8 hw lights on and 5+ layers Flipper could do a million more polys/sec. then the NV2A.
 
well i am kind of interested in what can be done with it (in terms of performance). Maybe ERP can help with that one.

If you ask me the 2MB frame buffer seems more like a limitation. At least it helps with fetching. What is the reason for the ~7.5 GB/s bandwidth to the buffer?
 
well i am kind of interested in what can be done with it (in terms of performance). Maybe ERP can help with that one.

There are quite a few threads in which ERP has talked about Flipper, its performance and some features, like TEV. Some are quite revealing. So you should probably do a search for threads ERP has posted in regarding GameCube.

If you ask me the 2MB frame buffer seems more like a limitation. At least it helps with fetching. What is the reason for the ~7.5 GB/s bandwidth to the buffer?

Well, in a PC graphics chip it would be much more of a limitation then a advantage (if it was being used exactly the same way). In a console today though its far more of a advantage then a limitation. Because of TV resolutions.
 
Where did you hear that CLEM? Last i heard the GC experiences a 50% reduction in fillarate after 2 texture layers in rendering. Who did you hear this from?
 
Teasy said:
well i am kind of interested in what can be done with it (in terms of performance). Maybe ERP can help with that one.

There are quite a few threads in which ERP has talked about Flipper, its performance and some features, like TEV. Some are quite revealing. So you should probably do a search for threads ERP has posted in regarding GameCube.

If you ask me the 2MB frame buffer seems more like a limitation. At least it helps with fetching. What is the reason for the ~7.5 GB/s bandwidth to the buffer?

Well, in a PC graphics chip it would be much more of a limitation then a advantage (if it was being used exactly the same way). In a console today though its far more of a advantage then a limitation. Because of TV resolutions.

Perhaps i could go and hunt them all down and condense the works of ERP into a nice uploadable/downloadable PDF file.
 
Where did you hear that CLEM? Last i heard the GC experiences a 50% reduction in fillarate after 2 texture layers in rendering. Who did you hear this from?

Fillrate has little to do with T&L though. Flipper can do all those 5 texture layers (and more) in one pass. NV2A would take 2 passes after 4 layers, which would half its T&L power as it'd have to T&L everything again for the second pass.

I'm not sure if Clem is right on Flipper being faster in T&L in that situation, but it is possible I suppose. I have heard that Flipper is very good with allot of hardware lights.
 
Ok first,
Virtual texturing is when a texture is being broken up into smaller pieces and only the parts of the texture that show up on screen are being sent to the GPU. This process works for both textures in the cache and main RAM. So if, say, only 1/3 of the texture shows up on screen either because the rest is outside the field of view or it's simply blocked by other objects, only the visible part will be sent to the GPU. Saves on bandwidth.

Where did you hear that CLEM? Last i heard the GC experiences a 50% reduction in fillarate after 2 texture layers in rendering. Who did you hear this from?

No idea. It was a few months ago. I honestly don't know if there was any truth to it or if it was just wishful thinking on the guy's part. :)
 
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