Some Engine Questions

[KimB]

don't forget about lithtech! F.E.A.R. looks amazing. it's THE PC title i'm waiting for, everything else is just to tide me over.

http://www.touchdownentertainment.com/home.htm

Meh, I think Lithtech is a pretty poor game development platform. The company seems to feel that they can make better game engines by just making game engines, and not games. The poor performance of games using the Lithtech engine speaks pretty strongly to the contrary.

 

[KimB]

As I was saying, a general scripting language like C# creates more freedom for every developer, they are not limited to the possibilities of the scripting engine. Secondly, just because the fact that C# is that general, and known by a lot of programmers, means that programmers that are already capable of programming using the language, do not need to learn a new language and are able to use all the experience they got with C#. This cuts down the learning time and costs for a developer; should be an easy choice. (Or you have some programmers in-house that have experience with Unreal Script of course, but that's less likely to be the situation)

1. I doubt C# is already that ubiquitous. It's a pretty new language, and I'm willing to bet there are far more people who know C++ and Java than C#.
2. UnrealScript is already very similar to Java, so those who know Java, or even C++, should have very little problem learning UnrealScript.
3. The primary learning curve when moving to any development project is dealing with how to use the pre-existing code. Since when using C# as a scripting language you're going to have to build up many custom routines and whatnot anyway, I'm not convinced that the learning curve would be any shorter with C# than it would be with Unreal Script (since the language structure is very much the same).

What is the point of supporting more platforms than you need to? Windows is what our public uses to play games, and Linux servers are supported as well. It's pretty standard at these days, I do not see any disadvantages of not supporting other platforms.

Game consoles are an even larger market than the PC market, and are not Windows-based, so I claim there are even larger reasons why you'd want to make a game engine cross-platform than Linux or Mac. Though, at the same time, I really want to see Linux come forward as a gaming platform. For one, I do all my work under Linux, and dislike having to reboot between playing games and getting some work in.

 

[Ostsol]

Actually, C# is incredibly easy for those who know C++ or Java, and experienced programmers have little difficulty learning new syntax anyway. The only real difficulty in programming is always the API, the classes and how they interact -- and game scripters certainly won't have to worry about most of the .NET Framework.

Regarding consoles. . . I wonder if Microsoft will include some of the .NET Framework in the XBox 2. . . To be honest, it does sound quite likely.

 

[KimB]

Actually, C# is incredibly easy for those who know C++ or Java, and experienced programmers have little difficulty learning new syntax anyway. The only real difficulty in programming is always the API, the classes and how they interact -- and game scripters certainly won't have to worry about most of the .NET Framework.

Which was part of my point. What they will have to worry about is the engine's framework. This is something that would be no different between C# and UnrealScript, and I doubt C# would be any easier to learn for Java/C++ programmers.

Regarding consoles. . . I wonder if Microsoft will include some of the .NET Framework in the XBox 2. . . To be honest, it does sound quite likely.

Perhaps, but this is only one of three consoles. Each of the main three consoles out right now is individually, I believe, larger than the PC market.

 

[Ostsol]

Actually, C# is incredibly easy for those who know C++ or Java, and experienced programmers have little difficulty learning new syntax anyway. The only real difficulty in programming is always the API, the classes and how they interact -- and game scripters certainly won't have to worry about most of the .NET Framework.

Which was part of my point. What they will have to worry about is the engine's framework. This is something that would be no different between C# and UnrealScript, and I doubt C# would be any easier to learn for Java/C++ programmers.

So you're just saying that C# doesn't offer anything beyond what other languages currently do? That's true and it admittedly doesn't have as widespread support as Java does.

 

[see colon]

Meh, I think Lithtech is a pretty poor game development platform. The company seems to feel that they can make better game engines by just making game engines, and not games. The poor performance of games using the Lithtech engine speaks pretty strongly to the contrary.

i've never really had any performance problems with lithtech games. well, back when i had a voodoo3 it was kind of an issue, but not since.

i'm not sure how you can call lithtech poor. NOLF was one of the first games to use overbright textures (and it showed), had very nice animation for it's time (something that was lacking in lithtech games before it *cough*shogo*cough*), and a ton of very nice scripted events. it was very modern for it's time, and the engine that powers F.E.A.R. looks like it's equaly as modern, for it's time.

regardless, if you are compiling a list of major game engines and their features, ignoring lithtech is foolish. it powers several "big budget" games (AvP2, NOLF, TRON2.0), several high profile title on the horizon (matrix online, junk metal [squareenix's online mech game for pc], F.E.A.R), and a rediculous amound of budget titles (die hard: NP, purge [formerly future v fantasy for quake1], sanity). it's noteable simply for the number of games it powers. check out the licensees page...
http://www.touchdownentertainment.com/partners.htm

 

[DjordySeelmann]

Perhaps, but this is only one of three consoles. Each of the main three consoles out right now is individually, I believe, larger than the PC market.

True, and next to that, it's more profitable as well. However, we do support Xbox 2, and the engine will need to go through a porting process to be fully compatible with PS3 as well.

Lithtech doesn't look that high-tech to me, however, it certainly looks decent, and that's enough if the gameplay of the game is well thought out. Moreover, I believe it's a good thing to have "cheap", decent engines around on the market, because it enables the developers that don't have millions to spend on their projects, to further emphasize their spendings on non-engine features, like better visuals (by hiring more talented artists), gameplay systems, etc.

Anyway, that's why it is important to include a "budget" engine as well in your comparison.

 

[see colon]

Lithtech doesn't look that high-tech to me, however, it certainly looks decent, and that's enough if the gameplay of the game is well thought out.

have you seen F.E.A.R. in action? it's easily HL2 quality from the stuff i've seen.

if we are looking at console engines, renderware must be included. it powers almost everything.