Some comments from Nvnews...

[Xmas]

You and most others.... Nvidia was suspected of cheating on 3Dmark as a result of their splash screens causing them to get higher scores. There was some converage on a few sites but for the most part it was not mentioned on any of the more popular sites. EG THG, Anandtech...... Go figure.

I know that. I just don't see how the word "fiasco" fits here.

 

[Ozymandis]

EDSTROLIG. During a particularly nasty argument when Ed predicted a complete AMD collapse within a couple of months, even BMO called him a moron.

I think I remember him. That was a loooong time ago 8)

 

[Hellbinder]

That is a good question.. why exactly was it NOT a fiasco.

Aswer that, and you also have the answer to why the internet Hardware/game sites are completely lost at sea.

 

[nggalai]

]That is a good question.. why exactly was it NOT a fiasco.

Aswer that, and you also have the answer to why the internet Hardware/game sites are completely lost at sea.

Well, one answer would be this:

1) download driver build 30.30

2) install

3) compare scores with and w/out splash screens

4) compare scores with 29.42 scores.

ta,
.rb

 

[OpenGL guy]

1) download driver build 30.30

2) install

3) compare scores with and w/out splash screens

4) compare scores with 29.42 scores.

All that proves is they fixed their app. detect

No one implied they would do it wrong twice

 

[nggalai]

All that proves is they fixed their app. detect

No one implied they would do it wrong twice

Duh. You're right. Never thought of that.

No, seriously now--why the hell are we again talking about this issue? Haven't there been enough threads already?

ta,
-Sascha.rb

P.S. hmm. that "we" includes me as well. as the splash screen thingy is hugely OT in this thread, I'll try to make a point and stop with this discussion right now.rb

 

[Hellbinder]

No, seriously now--why the hell are we again talking about this issue? Haven't there been enough threads already?

D#$%&



I know that dave and others are going to reprmand me.. but COME ON! Its perfectly ok for overclockers to make wild accusations about quak from a year ago.. but if i/we say *hold on thats not fair look at 3dmark* you find fault?????? The reason this was brought up was not to point out the specific issue, but the imballance.

No one is willing to deal with the truth.

 

[Guest]

The reason this was brought up was not to point out the specific issue, but the imballance.

No one is willing to deal with the truth.

For fear of looking like a fool right? I am thinking we are on the same page.

 

[Nagorak]

You and most others.... Nvidia was suspected of cheating on 3Dmark as a result of their splash screens causing them to get higher scores. There was some converage on a few sites but for the most part it was not mentioned on any of the more popular sites. EG THG, Anandtech...... Go figure.

Just as well... I'd like to get away from these "conspiracy theories" if at all possible.

 

[Guest]

Just as well... I'd like to get away from these "conspiracy theories" if at all possible.

It isn't even a theory...... it is however a matter of fact.

I don't mind "conspiracy theories" as you put it, if they carry truth. Just because something cannot be proved without a shadow of a doubt doesn't mean that it is false. If it turns out that I am wrong about something then so be it but I would not let the possibility of being wrong keep me from saying possibly what I am thinking. Nore would I bend to a humiliation tactic to shut me up. 8)

I have been right/wrong about more then one thing in my life. Besides I would rather be found wrong in my conclusion then to have something unaddressed and continue to do all an injustice.

 

[Nagorak]

Just as well... I'd like to get away from these "conspiracy theories" if at all possible.

It isn't even a theory...... it is however a matter of fact.

I don't mind "conspiracy theories" as you put it, if they carry truth. Just because something cannot be proved without a shadow of a doubt doesn't mean that it is false. If it turns out that I am wrong about something then so be it but I would not let the possibility of being wrong keep me from saying possibly what I am thinking. Nore would I bend to a humiliation tactic to shut me up. 8)

I have been right/wrong about more then one thing in my life. Besides I would rather be found wrong in my conclusion then to have something unaddressed and continue to do all an injustice.

The problem is these things were addressed, but it didn't change anything because they were just BS to begin with!

The Quack thing was a driver bug but everyone assumed ATi was trying to cheat (as if they'd really be so dumb as to make a game look so horrible and expect no one to notice). Then the whole 3Dmark thing...why the hell would Nvidia need the Splash Screens in order to optimize for the benchmark (note: it's not even cheating), they'd just read the name of the file being executed.

People are actively looking for a company to "cheat", so they just end up seeing it when it's not even there. There's something to be said for keeping an eye on these companies, but taking it to extremes like in the past is just ridiculous!

 

[Guest]

Then why were they getting higher benchmarks when the splash screens were on then when they were not. After they fixed the problem nvidia users lost performance on 3Dmark. As far as the Quake thing is conserned that was just a matter of soiling the Radeon 8500 launch even further then need be considering other issues it was having. Not a peep from THG none from AnandTech. The sick part is if it were ATI these sites would have hung ATI out to dry..... you know it, I know it and so does everyone else here, in fact we would still be hearing about how ATI cheats on 3Dmark. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Tahir2]

It's not cheating its optimising

And that does happen...

E.g.

Why does an NVDA card do so well in QIII compared to an ATi card (marignally faster but still faster). (Someone is going to want facts now...sorry I cannot be bothered cos this is really boring and just something I noticed).

With other games using the same 3d engine the NVDA cards do worse than the ATi card.... oh but people will claim that later games stress the vidoecard more. If that is the case then the ATi card should be even slower, right? Why not use Voyager.. one of the first games to use the QIII engine.. not significantly more stressfull to the QIII engine either.

I dont consider that cheating though, I call it being smart. But yes both issues were addressed and yes we are making a big deal out of a mole hill.

But hey its all in the Eye of the Beholder.

 

[Guest]

3Dmark is not a game.....

 

[Tahir2]

It's still being smart.

And the default settings that are displayed on the Orb for fastest person with highest 3d dork score was not affected by the Splash Screen as far as Madonion's Worm said, IIRC.

Anyway.... that is all I have to say on the subject.

Except NVDA is cheating with its implementation of Anisotropic filtering i.e. lowering quality = making it look like they have improved the speed. They have done this SEVERAL times in the past too.....

Bah humbug.. its boring TBH.

 

[Gollum]

This is going round and round again, starts getting frustrating, let me sum it up the way I see it:

- People are complaining about bad journalism by websites.
- The ATI "Quack-issue" was "uncovered" a year ago and remains a marvelous example of bad web-journalism even till today.
- Nvidia is apparently caught doing a similar thing a year later.
- People now actually want *more* bad journalism, in some kind of desire for revenge (or in rare cases fairness), actually increasing demand for bad journalism ...

... now tell me what's wrong with that picture. Is it too much to ask people to put such an incident like that Quack thing behind us please? Been there, done that. I guess its like with that whole Cg/Rendermonkey thing, everybody had their great outcry when the first rumors spilled out about Cg, almost all concerns have been adressed since then, people are smarter and know more about the background and what to expect, hence a lot less dirst is stirred up.

For heaven's sake, we're (probably) all grown-ups here, yet some people act as if somebody had stolen them their precious lolly over this whole Quack thing. I have no intention of arguing about this kind of crap when we're discussing an optimization /driver bug in the NV45's "Detonator UltraX" driverset - "that's a cheat! remember 3 years ago? ATI and that Quack thing? I demand justice!" - its getting ridiculous, let it go for once ... seesh ...

 

[nggalai]

]Its perfectly ok for overclockers to make wild accusations about quak from a year ago.. but if i/we say *hold on thats not fair look at 3dmark* you find fault??????

No, it isn't perfectly ok for overclockers to still make accusations on the quack-line of things.

Nagorak summed it up pretty well, and I fully agree with his posting, especially with this bit here:

People are actively looking for a company to "cheat", so they just end up seeing it when it's not even there. There's something to be said for keeping an eye on these companies, but taking it to extremes like in the past is just ridiculous!

Ridiculous is the perfect word, indeed.

ta,
-Sascha.rb

 

[Glonk]

Nvidia is apparently caught doing a similar thing a year later.

Not quite...the bug was fixed in the drivers. Now Nvidia gets the same scores (the high ones with the splashscreens before) with or without the splashscreens enabled.

 

[Sharkfood]

Not quite...the bug was fixed in the drivers. Now Nvidia gets the same scores (the high ones with the splashscreens before) with or without the splashscreens enabled.

The Quack debacle was also fixed in the very next drivers with no reduction in performance as well. This makes it the exact same issue- and debatable how "wrong" NVIDIA's was as this applied to a pure benchmark, versus a real-live *game* that just so happens to also be used as a benchmark.

I'd also be interested in what drivers fix the NVIDIA issue. I havent upgraded from the 29.80 leaks.. are there newer leaks confirmed now to fix the issue?

Interesting enough, we've already exposed the hordes of websites showing around Quincunx screenshots on the GF4 are flat out wrong. I've seen similar framebuffer "cheats" or "bugs" with AF now, although havent tested conclusively. There are easily enough tainted apples in the barrel at this point in time to make the selective accusations pretty obvious when there is a plethora of factual/reproducible issues in the "other camp" right here and now. None of these get any website attention though. The selectivity becomes very obvious, but it shouldnt surprise anyone really.

Cheers,
-Shark