So is PS3 GPU one generation beyond Xenon graphics chip?

[Vince]

Probably a better way to think of it is that they are both targetted for 65 nM but that the initial implementation will be done in 90 nM for timing reasons.

Why is that a better way to think about it? Specifically, why do you assume everyone is shipping (anything) at 90nm? Your all inclusive comment is wrong, more to the point, why not posit a company launching at 65nm is "targeting" 45nm?

 

[NocturnDragon]

in the end it doesnt matter cuz sony is going to dominate next gen.

It's just me or the signal/noise ration is lowering everyday more?

 

[one]

in the end it doesnt matter cuz sony is going to dominate next gen.

It's just me or the signal/noise ration is lowering everyday more?

Don't mind, they are subliminal voices

 

[a688]

in the end it doesnt matter cuz sony is going to dominate next gen.

Oh ok, lets call up Microsoft and Nintendo to tell them to quit before its too late. Honestly, this forum makes me sad about the ignornace and stupidity of people.

 

[Qroach]

Vince,

Why is that a better way to think about it? Specifically, why do you assume everyone is shipping (anything) at 90nm? Your all inclusive comment is wrong, more to the point, why not posit a company launching at 65nm is "targeting" 45nm?

out of curiosity, what process did sony use for PSP chips? was it any lower than people on the net expected?

 

[Vince]

out of curiosity, what process did sony use for PSP chips? was it any lower than people on the net expected?

ASC9, a Sony developed 90nm Low-K embedded DRAM logic process. It was in line with what was stated by Sony and stated by us.

Out of curiousity, why did you post? The only way for your argument to be analogous is if it was expected that PS3 launch on a 90nm process. Which is a fringe position at this time and against everything from SCE comments to their investment to sheer inability to process enough wafers. The consensus is a 65nm launch with quick transition to 45nm for early 2006 (atleast concerning the OTSS/SCE fabbed GPU) as stated here.

 

[Dio]

Not sure about that being 'stated'. All it states there is 'positive results are expected in 2005'. It doesn't define 'positive' (as 'ready for production in 2006' for example).

 

[Vince]

EETimes, Feb 2004[/url]]The first results of the collaboration are expected within two years, in 2005, the companies said. They plan to beat the rest of the semiconductor industry to the 45-nm process node and are starting 65-nm designs for application to sample chips "soon".

The joint development agreement calls for completion of the project by late 2005, with the ultimate goal of being first to market with 45-nm know-how. The project has a budget of ¥20 billion (about $190 million) and approximately 150 engineers from the two companies are expected to work on the project at Toshiba's Advanced Microelectronics Center in Yokohama, Japan and Oita Operations in Kyushu.

I, personally, do anticipate them sitting on this untill 2007 so they can launch PlayStation4 with it.

 

[one]

Not sure about that being 'stated'. All it states there is 'positive results are expected in 2005'. It doesn't define 'positive' (as 'ready for production in 2006' for example).

If 45nm is positive, what's 65nm like? Super-duper-positive? 8)

Sony PR[/url]] Of the 120 billion yen, approximately 53 billion yen will be used to reinforce the fabrication line located in the clean room on the first floor in SCEI's Fab2, for the manufacturing of 65 nanometer generation high-performance LSIs such as "Cell", using SOI process technology.

You can make a different assumption like the PS3's processors may launch in 90nm then will move to 65nm, but considering the demand of the PSP and the PSTwo next year, 90nm lines will be at full capacity for some time.

 

[Qroach]

Out of curiousity, why did you post?

What kind of question was that? I was curious is people on the net were expecting PSP to be targetting 65nm and it ended up being 90nm for now with a die shrink coming in the future.

 

[Vince]

What kind of question was that? I was curious is people on the net were expecting PSP to be targetting 65nm and it ended up being 90nm for now with a die shrink coming in the future.

I think you're quite mistaken. The IC was allways intended to be a 90nm SoC. There currently is, from what I hear, some debate over if they should transition quicker to 65nm or revise the 90nm design. There being several external aspects to balance outside of the sheer process gains in terms of profitability and power consumption, such as fab capacity.

 

[hovz]

in the end it doesnt matter cuz sony is going to dominate next gen.

Oh ok, lets call up Microsoft and Nintendo to tell them to quit before its too late. Honestly, this forum makes me sad about the ignornace and stupidity of people.

since when did stating the obvious become ignorant?

 

[hovz]

in the end it doesnt matter cuz sony is going to dominate next gen.

It's just me or the signal/noise ration is lowering everyday more?

sorry i dotn speak foblish

 

[aaronspink]

Probably a better way to think of it is that they are both targetted for 65 nM but that the initial implementation will be done in 90 nM for timing reasons.

Why is that a better way to think about it? Specifically, why do you assume everyone is shipping (anything) at 90nm? Your all inclusive comment is wrong, more to the point, why not posit a company launching at 65nm is "targeting" 45nm?

Because they can't afford to lose that much money waiting until '08 to ship at reasonable die sizes. And those that don't ship initially at 90nm will do developer seeding using 90nm parts or be late to market.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

[aaronspink]

If 45nm is positive, what's 65nm like? Super-duper-positive? 8)

well once you use the sony hype processor to industry standard process decoders your sentence reads as follows...

"if 65nm is positive, what's 90nm like? Super-duper-positive? 8)"

Sony has a habit of embelishing their technology. Lets state a positive. I am positive that no one will beat Intel to a process node. In general the companies pushing the technology are doing good to hit within 6 months of the Intel transition. This is generally the case because Intel does a large portion of the tools development with the process equipment vendors.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

[Vince]

Sony has a habit of embelishing their technology. Lets state a positive. I am positive that no one will beat Intel to a process node.

• OTTAWA, CANADA, FEBRUARY 04th, 2004 – Chipworks Inc. (“Chipworksâ€￾), the standard setting supplier of reverse engineering services, commented today that they consider that the Sony PSX device is manufactured on one of the most advanced processes in production.
  
  “Chipworks obtained a sample of the Sony PSX chip and had started to take it apart based on the reports that it was a 90 nm part, but we have come to somewhat different conclusions than those reported last week.â€￾ stated Chipworks senior technology analyst Dick James. “For one thing, we found transistors with a physical gate length of 45 – 50 nm, which immediately led us to believe that we did have a 90 nm part.â€￾
  
  While the Sony/Toshiba process may not meet the letter of the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors (ITRS) 2003 it is comparable with the leading edge Intel process in terms of gate dimension. The highly anticipated Intel 90 nm device announced last fall at the Intel Developer Forum is reported to have a gate length of 45 nm. This is a little larger than the gate length listed in the ITRS, which benchmarks the polysilicon gate length at 37 nm.
  
  In addition the Sony device uses an advanced two stack low-k dielectric structure. The combination of this dielectric process and the smallest transistor seen so far by Chipworks makes this one of the most advanced processes in volume production today.

<center>

</center>

When did the EE+GS@90 powered PlayStation2's go on sale, refresh my memory Aaron.

Because they can't afford to lose that much money waiting until '08 to ship at reasonable die sizes. And those that don't ship initially at 90nm will do developer seeding using 90nm parts or be late to market.

I'm sorry... I had a recollection from 1999. I can't say much more than this, you just continue to defy all logic -- there are 90nm first generation Cell chips in circulation today. 65nm samples are being evaluated today with an investment in 65nm production of well over $3Billion and a Sony contract on initial production from this node. Ohh, and 45nm has a ~2006 introduction -- stop being obtuse.

 

[jvd]

It depends .

If we look at recent past history you get


nv3x new nvidia tech

r3x0 new ati tech

The new ati tech as clearly the winner

nv4x new nvidia tech

r42x modified ati tech

THey are pretty much even in performance with the nv4x having the edge in features though a small diffrence

The r520 is not a new tech either. Its an r3x0 with sm3.0

So it may very well be that both the ps3 gpu and xbox system would be similar to each other .

 

[DeanoC]

When did the EE+GS@90 powered PlayStation2's go on sale, refresh my memory Aaron.

I don't know but Intel were producing 90nm processors in September 2003.

Those reports about wether it 90nm or not seem to indicate EE+GS@90 being Jan 2004.

 

[Vince]

I don't know but Intel were producing 90nm processors in September 2003.

I know Deano, I wanted Aaron to answer since it seems implicit that he knows...

Production started in 2003:

• Electronic News, 4/21/2003[/url]]Sony Launching 90nm Embedded DRAM
  
  Sony's subsidiary that makes the PlayStation 2, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. said today that it would be in production on 90nm embedded DRAM process in fiscal 2003...
  
  Sony claims it will be ahead of anyone else in the industry on 90nm embedded DRAM volume production. Production of the chip will start from this spring at Oita TS Semiconductor (OTSS), a joint venture between Sony Computer Entertainment and Toshiba Corp., and in the fall at Sony's own fab in Isahaya City, Nagasaki Prefecture, Japan.

CX-News, which is Sony's publication, stated they had begun shipping PS2's with the 90nm processor out of Nagasaki in October of 2003.

<center>

Sony CXD9797GB -- (via Chipworks) -- Intel "Prescott"</center>

 

[jvd]

so if intel shipped them in sept wouldn't it have been after intel which means it wasn't the market leader ?