SimHQ - Bubba does the ATI 9700 Pro.......

[Dave Baumann]

Oh, for gods sake, calm down for two seconds Derek. I’m not misquoting I’m paraphrasing.

2. I took exception to the particular part that I quoted and responded to above. NOWHERE did I call someone a liar. Ever. 2. I took exception to the particular part that I quoted and responded to above. NOWHERE did I call someone a liar. Ever.

What? Who’s saying anything about being a liar?

But this is the point being made – your point of exception in your first post bears little relevance to this review. The review cannot report on issues if the reviewer did not find any. And, if the reviewer did not find any then it’s a reasonable conclusion to make that they are OK.

3. In subsequent posts, I CLEARLY pointed out that the suite of games he tested on, may/may not exhibit driver problems - but if you folks actually READ that damn review, you will see that it was - RIGHTFULLY - about the frigging card and NOT about the drivers.

In my experience any product review is about the product – as such a part of the product is the drivers as these actually make the hardware do what its supposed to. Also, but supplying benchmark numbers you are also reviewing the drivers since these can have a large impact of the product as a whole.

I can tell you RIGHT now, that I can point out a plethora of driver BUGS in EVERY SINGLE GAME he used in that review (using the 775 drivers he used).

Good. Do it. Of course, I shouldn’t need to say that’s what you should have done in the first post you made.

That calls for speculation. Lets not go there

Well, in my opinion as an end user and reviewer the release drivers are far better than the release drivers for Radeon 8500; hell, they are better than the drivers I reviews 8500 with 4 months after its release.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

I must be reading and comprehension impaired.

Derek took exception to Bubba writing that in his opinion the drivers are a good release set - stating that this was 'b*llocks'.

]

(a) Thats not what I said

(b) Thats not what he said

Hmm. ? Well, just what did Bubba say:

such a complete coordination of driver and hardware support working and functioning together as a total package.

Sounds like he's saying that, in his opinion, the release drivers are good.

What did Dave claim Bubba said?

Bubba writing that in his opinion the drivers are a good release set

Erm... yes, I'm certainly comprehension impaired there.

What did Dave claim Derek said (in response to that particular quote)?

Derek took exception... stating that this was 'b*llocks'

And what did Derek actually have to say about that particular quote?

That, right there, pure and utter bollocks

Yes, I'm certainly reading and comprehension impaired as well. Derek, you truly are a master of fuzzification, if there is any such thing.

Then when I ignore posts from people who don't seem to have enough common sense to boil an egg, they wonder why. Its like ...oh look at me! look at me! respond to me please!!

Yes fool, post something worthy of my attention, and I'll reply to it. Until then, STFU and quit drawing attention to yourself.

Worthy of your attention? Drawing attention to myself? Please, stop, you're too much. OK, sorry, I must work harder on posting something more worthy of the attention of a genius.

I find it a bit ironic that someone who clearly misses the most basic meaning of someone's post (as I pointed out earlier, and you ignored) that even us reading and comprehension impaired people can easily grasp can almost immediately resume slinging insults about other people's intelligence.

 

[Entropy]

]That, right there, pure and utter bollocks - unless I misunderstood the real meaning of that paragraph.

For one thing, the 775 drivers that ship with the card are as buggy as hell. A common trait for ALL ATI drivers that ship with boards. So, I have no clue wtf he's talking about.

]No, I'm just not as stupid as some [you?] - and willing to exibit it in public. All that crap you wrote bears no relevance to what I wrote.

Take a reading comprehension class before you respond to my posts please. I'm not in the mood for knee jerk responses from any brain-dead buffoon with access to a computer.

]
I could care less. The issue is about ATI's piss-poor drivers. We're not discussing nVidia, Matrox or anyone else. Yes, they too have some driver issues - but you CANNOT compare the state of those boards drivers to that of ATI's. Thats just laughable.

I am firmly neutral and don't pick sides.

]
I mean, what the hell is the matter with you people?

]

Yes fool, post something worthy of my attention, and I'll reply to it. Until then, STFU and quit drawing attention to yourself.

Entropy

 

[LittlePenny]

Sorry Derek, but I misunderstood your first post in the same way Wavey did. As for the first set of drivers being buggy upon release should that be taken into consideration when doing a review long after release?

Anyhow I do like Bubba's review, it does put things into a different perspective.

 

[fresh]

]Lets take this slowly. I'm going to enjoy this immensely.

LOL, here we go again!

 

[DemoCoder]

http://defiance.singlegoal.com/personality.htm

 

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Oh, for gods sake, calm down for two seconds Derek. I’m not misquoting I’m paraphrasing.

Yes well, even then, things get taken out context. And given the notion around here, I ain't taking ANY chances.

What? Who’s saying anything about being a liar?

I wasn't refering to you. Read a few posts back and you will see one accusing me of accusing Bubba of lying.

But this is the point being made – your point of exception in your first post bears little relevance to this review. The review cannot report on issues if the reviewer did not find any. And, if the reviewer did not find any then it’s a reasonable conclusion to make that they are OK.

Given that, how EXACTLY does that preclude me from raising my point?

In my experience any product review is about the product – as such a part of the product is the drivers as these actually make the hardware do what its supposed to. Also, but supplying benchmark numbers you are also reviewing the drivers since these can have a large impact of the product as a whole.

Well then, I'm glad you brought that up! In which case, he already KNEW that the 9xxx series HAS A MYRIAD OF PROBLEMS ACROSS A BUNCH OF MODERN DAY GAMES. As such, running benchmarks on LEGACY games, does not preclude the fact that THE DRIVERS SUCKED THEN., THEY SUCK NOW. AND THEY WILL SUCK FOR MONTHS TO COME. Did I leave any variation of SUCK out?

Good. Do it. Of course, I shouldn’t need to say that’s what you should have done in the first post you made.

No, I should'nt because thats NOT what my post was about. I can tell you RIGHT NOW that running the 9700Pro on that 775-776 (haven't tried it on 777 yet) shows a LOT of Z buffer artifacts, multi-texturing problems, texture shearing/tearing etc. I have yet to try it on the 777 driver set.

There ARE problems with the ATI drivers on those games and the only one that I'm certain of (because I play it more often) is F4.

I know that the pre-requisite raving to come, is going to be along the lines of ..oh well, its an old game, so what do you expect?. To which my response would be, ok, go play any one of the more recent games and see for yourself.

 

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

As for the first set of drivers being buggy upon release should that be taken into consideration when doing a review long after release?

Whats your point? His review indicated that he was using the 775 drivers which ship with the card.

In answering your question, whatever drivers that came with the card, is what should be reviewed with the card. In the same way that products are reviewed based on what a consumer is expected to pick right off the shelf e.g. games, a toaster, a refrigerator or a new bong pipe.

The 775 drivers are crap. Not the kind of we-can-ignore-this kinda crap. Just pure crap for most games (especially next-gen games). Even basic functionality like, oh, I dunno, TnL? Are broken. I'm sure you already have a list by now - as do ATI.

The 776 drivers fix some things - and broke others. They're crap.

The 777 drivers don't seem to do a damn thing different from the 776 drivers - apart from the fact that it now includes the driver patch that came after 775 and before 776. It may have fixed other things, but so far, I haven't seen any such indication - neither have the folks who are still having the same problems they did (and in some cases a lot worse) with the 776 drivers. They're crap.

Anyhow I do like Bubba's review, it does put things into a different perspective.

While I too like the review, I have no clue what exactly it puts into a different perspective that we haven't already seen elsewhere. Its the general theme. So, what'd I miss? Assuming we're all reading the same review of course.

 

[martrox]

Anybody interested in any Get Smart reruns?

 

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Anybody interested in any Get Smart reruns?

Can't you fockers - for once - post ON TOPIC? sheesh

 

[DemoCoder]

Martox, you are a TOTAL IDIOT for making such a COMMENT. How MANY buggy, patched up games HAVE you SHIPPED? I asked YOU a QUESTION!

Don't ANSWER. I don't CARE what YOU think. I answer TO NO ONE.

Do they let EUROPEAN UNLADEN SWALLOWS use computers NOWadays? The level OF intelligence in THE responses in THIS board is VERY low!

blah f*cking blah I RULE blah DUMB ASSES blah SUCKS blah blah blah F*CK blah blah IDIOTS blah blah blah MORONS blah DON'T CARE blah blah I blah blah MISQUOTED blah blah LYING blah blah


P.S. for those who aren't Monty Python fans http://www.armory.com/swallowscenes.html#question

 

[Dave Baumann]

Given that, how EXACTLY does that preclude me from raising my point?

It doesn’t Derek, but rehashing the same tired old shit that we’ve been through isn’t necessary at every juncture. If you had qualified your initial posts with some actual issues that bear relevant to what’s been looked at in Bubba’s review then there would be little cause for the so called fanATIcs to make the statements they have and much of this crap could have been avoided – cause and effect Derek, being a little more considered and thorough in ones post can go a long way.

In which case, he already KNEW that the 9xxx series HAS A MYRIAD OF PROBLEMS ACROSS A BUNCH OF MODERN DAY GAMES.

Sorry, I failed to see the jump there – did he know? Did you state this in the review?

No, I should'nt because thats NOT what my post was about. I can tell you RIGHT NOW that running the 9700Pro on that 775-776 (haven't tried it on 777 yet) shows a LOT of Z buffer artifacts, multi-texturing problems, texture shearing/tearing etc.

Well, that’s what is should have been about. But if you are going to say these things, qualify them. Where are the issues?

There ARE problems with the ATI drivers on those games and the only one that I'm certain of (because I play it more often) is F4.

Again, prove it. That all we’re asking for – provide proof, no-one can argue.

The 775 drivers are crap. Not the kind of we-can-ignore-this kinda crap. Just pure crap for most games (especially next-gen games). Even basic functionality like, oh, I dunno, TnL? Are broken. I'm sure you already have a list by now - as do ATI.

Then why are many modern games running fine in most peoples opinions?

Also I still want to see where T&L is broken. I know that it is active certainly in some titles as I’ve tested it.

 

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Martox, you are a TOTAL IDIOT for making such a COMMENT. How MANY buggy, patched up games HAVE you SHIPPED? I asked YOU a QUESTION!

Don't ANSWER. I don't CARE what YOU think. I answer TO NO ONE.

Do they let EUROPEAN UNLADEN SWALLOWS use computers NOWadays? The level OF intelligence in THE responses in THIS board is VERY low!

blah f*cking blah I RULE blah DUMB ASSES blah SUCKS blah blah blah F*CK blah blah IDIOTS blah blah blah MORONS blah DON'T CARE blah blah I blah blah MISQUOTED blah blah LYING blah blah


P.S. for those who aren't Monty Python fans http://www.armory.com/swallowscenes.html#question

LMAO!!! Good one that

 

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

It doesn’t Derek, but rehashing the same tired old shit that we’ve been through isn’t necessary at every juncture. If you had qualified your initial posts with some actual issues that bear relevant to what’s been looked at in Bubba’s review then there would be little cause for the so called fanATIcs to make the statements they have and much of this crap could have been avoided – cause and effect Derek, being a little more considered and thorough in ones post can go a long way.

Oh please. Spare me this same ol' regurgigated sanctimous fanboi-laden bullshit. Make excuses for your fanATIc bretheren all you want. Thats not going to do ANY good because I stand firm on my FACTUAL assertions. So, you ladies can carry on making as much noise as you bloody well want. It just doesn't change a thing. Gang up on me.

HERE - FOR THE LAST TIME - IS WHAT I WROTE.

It is a well written review, though I take exception to the particular bit of rubbish.

This is the first time I have ever known an ATI product to launch with such a complete coordination of driver and hardware support working and functioning together as a total package.

That, right there, pure and utter bollocks - unless I misunderstood the real meaning of that paragraph.

For one thing, the 775 drivers that ship with the card are as buggy as hell. A common trait for ALL ATI drivers that ship with boards. So, I have no clue wtf he's talking about.

The fanbois can cuss me. Harrass me. Poke fun at me. I don't frigging care. All I care about is the discussion at hand.

And as for you, you can keep spinning on your heels and twisting everything I post, to your hearts content. Again, thats not going to change anything. You'd think that, at the very least, the effort would produce better drivers. If the ATI driver devs put as much vigor into actually fixing driver problems as you folks put into trying to put everyone who discusses this, down, we won't have anything to argue about.

Sorry, I failed to see the jump there –

Yeah, you would. I'm utterly shocked

did he know?

Oh yeah, try telling me that he didn't know

Did you state this in the review?

wot? I didn't write a damn review, he did.

Well, that’s what is should have been about. But if you are going to say these things, qualify them. Where are the issues?

Look, READ MY POST, I'm NOT going to keep repeating myself. Didn't I frigging post issues that I personally noticed on F4?

Then why are many modern games running fine in most peoples opinions?

The same reason that many modern games aren't running fine in most people's opinions.

Also I still want to see where T&L is broken. I know that it is active certainly in some titles as I’ve tested it.

OK, now I know you're justing yanking my chain, so I'm going to start ignoring your posts if you don't stop. You know for a FACT that TnL wasn't working due to some stupid state (or whatever the hell OpenGL Guy was explaining in that other thread). NOW you're pretending like this is all news to you. In fact, there was a very long and nasty thread about this, which led to the definition of this shit's broken!, in which YOU and several other fanATIcs were trying to re-define the meaning of work BROKEN.

How soon we forget

 

[Bambers]

]I am firmly neutral and don't pick sides. All I know is that nVidia and Matrox boards have tridionally worked out of the box.

The G400 is a prime example.

 

[jjayb]

Please list this dozen games please and I'll pull them off my shelf right now (I have about 4000+ games in my library - so, think before you piss up this tree) and tell you EXACTLY what's wrong with them.

Ok Derek, not intended for me but I'll bite. Here's a list of games I've tried on my 9700 with no problems:

Soldier of fortune 2
Medal of Honor
Jedi knight 2
Mafia
Battlefield 1942
unreal tournament 2003 demo
nolf 2 demo
operation flashpoint
motogp
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Army operations

One game had a problem:

madden ea2003, helmets all white on players in the main menu. (not a problem for me, doesn't happen in game)

One benchmark has a problem: 3dmark2001, will not run nature test or high poly test. Again, not a problem, don't "play" that game much. I've also seen posts in madonion forums of nvidia card users not being able to run specific tests having the same symptoms as myself. Can't conclude it's an ati driver problem.

So, of all the games I've tried, only one has a problem. Really more of a minor annoyance that doesn't happen in actual gameplay. So go ahead and pull the games off your 4,000 title shelf and tell me what's wrong with them. I've played them all and not noticed any problems. Must be bullocks. But if you want to dig around in the drivers and tell me what's not being done right, something I'll never notice as an end user, feel free.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Oh please. Spare me this same ol' regurgigated sanctimous fanboi-laden bullshit. Make excuses for your fanATIc bretheren all you want. Thats not going to do ANY good because I stand firm on my FACTUAL assertions.

The point I’m making Derek is that there were no factual assertions in your initial post that bears any relevance the context of Bubba’s review – do you see that? You have subsequently attempted to qualify your statements and all I’m saying is that if you had done that in the first place half of this thread wouldn’t exist.

Why is it that disagreeing with you must also mean its ‘fan laden bullshit’?

And as for you, you can keep spinning on your heels and twisting everything I post, to your hearts content. Again, thats not going to change anything.

Who’s spinning Derek? Where is the spin?

Oh yeah, try telling me that he didn't know

I don’t know if he knew. However, given the context of the review if he didn’t find any issues then what is wrong with his conclusion?

Look, READ MY POST, I'm NOT going to keep repeating myself. Didn't I frigging post issues that I personally noticed on F4?

The problem is Derek, I did read your post, and the previous one which said:

I can tell you RIGHT now, that I can point out a plethora of driver BUGS in EVERY SINGLE GAME he used in that review (using the 775 drivers he used).

I’ve asked for evidence of this, you’ve talked of one game – no providing evidence – to me and any rational person there is a large disparity between talking about some issues in one game and “a plethora of driver BUGS in EVERY SINGLE GAME he used in that reviewâ€. Again, show us.

You know for a FACT that TnL wasn't working due to some stupid state (or whatever the hell OpenGL Guy was explaining in that other thread). NOW you're pretending like this is all news to you. In fact, there was a very long and nasty thread about this, which led to the definition of this shit's broken!, in which YOU and several other fanATIcs were trying to re-define the meaning of work BROKEN

I know for a fact that I could enable/disable T&L in the titles I have tested and there would be a difference, idicating that T&L was indeed working on these titles. I want to know in which titles T&L did not work under 7.75 since it obviously did not apply to all.

 

[Edge]

> "he already KNEW that the 9xxx series HAS A MYRIAD OF PROBLEMS ACROSS A BUNCH OF MODERN DAY GAMES."

Derek, what problems exist with the Radeon 9000 drivers? I just bought the Radeon 9000, have played/ran numerous games, benchmarks, etc., and have no problems.

Derek, you should behave yourself. I mean coming in here, and arguing every little point does nothing but bring a lot misery on to yourself, and make you a major annoyance here.

If you feel the ATI 9700 drivers have problems, then why don't you list those problems in a seperate thread, or better yet, email ATI, to help them resolve those problems. Be positive, as you will enjoy life more.

Don't get so worked up when people are happy with the drivers. We do not have to share the same dissatisfaction as you do!

No need to swear, and make rude comments to get your point across, and layoff the upper case and bolding. I think you need step back, take some deep breaths, and try to see this thread from a different perspective.

 

[fresh]

Guys, come on.. remain calm. Derek has a PhD and is a successful game designer/publisher/producer/programmer/artist/cook/genius. If anyone here knows anything, it's him. His posts and insights have inspired me to respond to those spam email messages and order my very own $30 PhD, so that I can be Smart, too.

Mr. Fresh, (soon to be) PhD

 

[noko]

I am no developer nor am I a programmer, just thought I get that out. Anyways I think Derek brought up some excellent points such as no W-Buffer and a 24bit Z buffer on the Radeon 9700. Now I wish someone explain, maybe somebody already did (signal to noise ratio was low) what games need these features and what happens when they are not available. How it affects the clip plane from near to far and what the hell is the W-buffer used for and if it was ever used? Allright maybe I have nothing to contribute but those questions are bugging the $hit out of me