SimHQ - Bubba does the ATI 9700 Pro.......

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martrox

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Very interesting review:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/hardware/reviews/radeon9700pro/

BTW, I now have replaced my TI200 with an 8500, and one of my TI4600 with a 9700Pro. While I am not THAT impressed with the 8500 - it works well with no issues at all, just very slow with FSAA(only real complaint - not that the TI200 was any better, and I do appreciate the ansio abilitites!!).....I have to say that the 9700 absolutely slays the TI4600. And, contrary to some people, I have had absolutely NO problems playing anything! Well, I did have to drop the O/C'ng on 1 fsb(170 vs. 171) for UT2003 Demo..... :rolleyes:
 
It is a well written review, though I take exception to the particular bit of rubbish.

This is the first time I have ever known an ATI product to launch with such a complete coordination of driver and hardware support working and functioning together as a total package.

That, right there, pure and utter bollocks - unless I misunderstood the real meaning of that paragraph.

For one thing, the 775 drivers that ship with the card are as buggy as hell. A common trait for ALL ATI drivers that ship with boards. So, I have no clue wtf he's talking about. :rolleyes:
 
Sorry, Derek, but I'm not having any problems with my 9700, either. Maybe it's just because I'm a stupid end user....not a genus like you :rolleyes:
 
Derek Smart [3000AD said:
]
For one thing, the 775 drivers that ship with the card are as buggy as hell. A common trait for ALL ATI drivers that ship with boards. So, I have no clue wtf he's talking about. :rolleyes:


I thought in that 20 some page thread awhile ago that we agreed different people have different standards. For Derek, or other developers, the drivers are buggy as hell. Fine as he is in the know to make that call. But for the average Joe (no offense JD), then these drivers perfome a heck of a lot better than the ones that came with the 8500 at launch. I know there were a few issues (for example BF1942, The Thing, Mafia) that have already been fixed with a patch but considering how bad the 8500 itinital drivers were (no smooth vision, broken Q3 optimization = quake/qauke, HyperZ2 not working in opengl, no proper tri-linear filtering working in OpenGL, ect) then they have made some improvement at least to the end consumer. For me I only had an issue with FSAA sceen shots which was fixed and that issue with Tribes2 and FSAA. Other than that, its been a smooth ride so far...
 
martrox said:
Maybe it's just because I'm a stupid end user....not a genus like you :rolleyes:

Remember, you said it - I didn't. If the hat fits....

Speaking of which....

Oh, and they released the much-touted and equally as buggy, 777 drivers. Here, take a peak

jb said:
I thought in that 20 some page thread awhile ago that we agreed different people have different standards. For Derek, or other developers, the drivers are buggy as hell. Fine as he is in the know to make that call. But for the average Joe (no offense JD), then these drivers perfome a heck of a lot better than the ones that came with the 8500 at launch. I know there were a few issues (for example BF1942, The Thing, Mafia) that have already been fixed with a patch but considering how bad the 8500 itinital drivers were (no smooth vision, broken Q3 optimization = quake/qauke, HyperZ2 not working in opengl, no proper tri-linear filtering working in OpenGL, ect) then they have made some improvement at least to the end consumer. For me I only had an issue with FSAA sceen shots which was fixed and that issue with Tribes2 and FSAA. Other than that, its been a smooth ride so far...

While I agree with you to some extent, remember that the 775 drivers which shipped with the 9000/9700 had similar busted functionality e.g. TnL and string (want a list?) of other issues.

Look, when dealing with consumers, you can't just segregat them and say that because it works for one faction and not the other faction, that every thing is fine and dandy. Thats just ludicrous, wouldn't you agree?

The 9xxx series of drivers - IMO - are just as buggy as the 8xxx series of drivers. There is no inconsistency in this regard. None whatsoever.

While others - including myself - are touting ATI's improved driver support, I still maintain that they have a bloody long way to go.

I predict that, as with ALL previous ATI cards, these 9xxx series of drivers will remain in this sordid sorry state....right up to the release of the next generation of ATI cards. It is a neverending cycle that they simply can't seem to shake.

Speed is one thing. Compatibility is quite another. Whats the fucking point of touting/selling a fast card, if the competion has an almost as fast card (Ti4600) but with approx 98% more stability?!?!
 
BTW since that review was biased primarily off flight sims, noticed how he did not make note of the fact that the R9700 drops a bit in AF strength when you rotate? You would think that all of that banking/rolling would be the worse case for the to see this issue. So my thinks that its not really an issue anymore :)
 
jb said:
BTW since that review was biased primarily off flight sims, noticed how he did not make note of the fact that the R9700 drops a bit in AF strength when you rotate? You would think that all of that banking/rolling would be the worse case for the to see this issue. So my thinks that its not really an issue anymore :)

Well, I'm a simmer - and he's playing the same sim that I am. There IS a speed degradation in dense scenes, banking etc. Send him email and ask him why he didnt' bother to note that. I'll tell you his answer if you'd like : the loss is neglible.

And testing a board on, for all intent and purposes, legacy games and not recent games that push the envelope, is not a good idea btw. I can't wait to see how CFS3 runs on the 9xxx series when it ships. Hopefully the 779 drivers would be out and will, again probably break more than they fix.
 
Speed is one thing. Compatibility is quite another. Whats the fucking point of touting/selling a fast card, if the competion has an almost as fast card (Ti4600) but with approx 98% more stability?!?!

Thats like saying when a GF2MX was released that because it benched close to the Geforce 2 in several older benchmarks that it was just as fast.

However, using your hyper-genius intellect Derek, you would know that the Gf2MX had 2 pipelines and the GTS2 had 4 thats why today the GTS2 is a viable card and the Gf2MX is not.

You would then be able to make the same conclusion about the Ti4600 and the 9700. The Ti4600 has 4 pipelines and the 9700 has 8. In older games the Ti4600 is fairly close, however anyone with any sense knows that down the road the 9700 is going to totally outpace the Ti4600.

Are you so bitter at ATi that your hatred is blinding you? Or are you accepting kickbacks? Or are you just totally irrational?

I think a lot of people would like to know.
 
duncan36 said:
Are you so bitter at ATi that your hatred is blinding you? Or are you accepting kickbacks? Or are you just totally irrational?

I think a lot of people would like to know.

No, I'm just not as stupid as some [you?] - and willing to exibit it in public. All that crap you wrote bears no relevance to what I wrote.

Take a reading comprehension class before you respond to my posts please. I'm not in the mood for knee jerk responses from any brain-dead buffoon with access to a computer.
 
It is a well written review, though I take exception to the particular bit of rubbish.

Im sorry but this is what is rubbish.. As it has been stated before YOU YOURSELF said initially that the drivers were good.. It took you a coupple weeks of DIGGING to find some issues that simply DO NOT EFFECT EVERYONE. The Guy tested multiple games and had no serious issues. Thus becuase you find 3 issues that you frikking repeat over and over and over in every thread... the drivers are Crap???

If 95% of the people can play 95% of all games without serious issues, most without ANY issues Then What the HELL IS THE PROBLEM. Forget the GF3 launch and the driver issues they had. Forget the GF2 launch and the driver issues they had, Forget the Det 40.41 debaucle... Or the fact that it was over a year before the Shaders were correctly programed for on the GF series. Etc etc etc... NO DRIVERS ARE PERFECT. PERIOD. PERIOD. PERIOD.

Here is the kicker like you.. I dont give a rip what you reply with... or try to slam me with. You are WAY overstating problems that do not effect most games, and taking the results and calling The whole rubbish.

It is totally and completely unballanced and unpofessional and someones IQ is not a licence for outright BIAS.
 
I recently bought a ATI Radeon 9000 OEM card, my first ATI card, and the drivers that came with this card are excellent! I have run about a dozen games so far, and everything runs beautifully, with no visual glitches.

Saying ATI has never released a product with good drivers is absolute nonsense!

Feel free to come over to my place and prove otherwise.
 
Hmm, this is perplexing. I missed the other huge Derek thread because I was gone on vacation, so do I let this one continue so I get to see what I missed or do I shutdown all the chest thumping before this gets out of hand? :rolleyes:
 
duncan36 said:
Are you so bitter at ATi that your hatred is blinding you? Or are you accepting kickbacks? Or are you just totally irrational?
These are not helpful comments. If you don't have anything to contribute, please avoid the reply button.
 
There were a couple of small issues with both cards. The new Det 40.41's removed the fonts from Flanker 2.5 when running FSAA preventing me from running the image quality tests.

From that review... not only are these not release drivers.. but they are drivers a coupple generations in from the GF4 launch. Yet they have released a driver with a very similar issue to the 9700's BF 1942 issue with launch drivers.

I am not pointing this out to slam Nvidia. It is just an example that NO DRIVERS ARE PERFECT. And that it is TOTALLY UNFAIR to post such overstated infalmatory rhetoric about ATi's drivers.

[edit]
BTW derek,, he used the Catalyst 2.2 drivers against the (questionable) 40.41 drivers for Nvidia. He did not even test the 9700 with the CAT 2.3's or the D3D patch. Does anone here really think that a GF4 ti 4600 should have a higher FSAA+Aniso score than the 9700 in Falcon??? There are some really *iffy* results in a bunch of tests showing up in various reviews that are an indidcator that somthing fishy is going on with the 40.41's imho.
 
John Reynolds said:
Hmm, this is perplexing. I missed the other huge Derek thread because I was gone on vacation, so do I let this one continue so I get to see what I missed or do I shutdown all the chest thumping before this gets out of hand? :rolleyes:

It does seems to be heading in same direction ;)

Oompa Loompa said:
If you don't have anything to contribute, please avoid the reply button.

I agree with you and it appears that no matter whatever is the thread about "somebody" is going to comment on ATI drivers, so we can either ignore that or watch every thread go the same way.
 
Hmm, this is perplexing. I missed the other huge Derek thread because I was gone on vacation, so do I let this one continue so I get to see what I missed or do I shutdown all the chest thumping before this gets out of hand?

I'll make you a deal...if you shut the thread down...I won't post a response in it. ;)
 
Derek Smart [3000AD said:
]
jb said:
BTW since that review was biased primarily off flight sims, noticed how he did not make note of the fact that the R9700 drops a bit in AF strength when you rotate? You would think that all of that banking/rolling would be the worse case for the to see this issue. So my thinks that its not really an issue anymore :)

Well, I'm a simmer - and he's playing the same sim that I am. There IS a speed degradation in dense scenes, banking etc. Send him email and ask him why he didnt' bother to note that. I'll tell you his answer if you'd like : the loss is neglible.


I'll resist the almost overwhelming urge to use the same insults and rhetoric that you commonly do, and just state the obvious. jb was referring to the quality of anisotropic filtering on rotated planes, in the same general line of discussion that was common about the 8500's implementation. His comment had nothing to do with "speed."
 
These are not helpful comments. If you don't have anything to contribute, please avoid the reply button.

Maybe not helpful to you, but certainly helpful to me. Since he refuses to answer intelligently, I will assume he's just cheesed off that his games don't work properly on ATi hardware, which I suppose could make someone so agitated, that it could knock them off center.
 
Lets take this slowly. I'm going to enjoy this immensely.

Hellbinder[CE said:
]Im sorry but this is what is rubbish.. As it has been stated before YOU YOURSELF said initially that the drivers were good..

Yes I did say that. And in comparision to PREVIOUS releases for cards. Hence my assertion that they [ATI driver dev] have improved.

Yes, I know - the general theme around here is to IGNORE the facts and just muddy posts with the usual nonsensical and distorted diatribe.

It took you a coupple weeks of DIGGING to find some issues that simply DO NOT EFFECT EVERYONE. [/b]

RUBBISH.

In fact, I just searched and read ALL my posts here and on my site about these ATI driver issues and found NO SUCH CLAIM.

The issues that I discovered were almost immediate and sudden under circumstances that I didn't originally check for. This is similar to running through a field of grass devoid of lions; then emerging on the other side to find a pack of them.

The documented problems in my games are still there. The documented problems in other games - are for the most part - still there. e.g. They ripped out W buffer support, fucked up the Z buffer royally. And even with these 777 drivers, Morrowind, my game and several others, STILL have Z buffer artifacts.

The Guy tested multiple games and had no serious issues. Thus becuase you find 3 issues that you frikking repeat over and over and over in every thread... the drivers are Crap???

You must be reading a different review. How many people are still playing sims? How many people bought/playing Morrowind, BF1942, Mafia, The Thing, GTA3 (you want a list?) etc etc Did you see ANY indication in his review that he even played ANY of these games?

The sales of mainstream games eclipse the sales of niche games such as sims (including mine), so of course a legacy game like F4, CFS2 etc won't exhibit problems that others will. But the fact remains, the casual (e.g. BF1942 et al and RPG market (e.g Morrowind) are vastly larger than the sim market.

If 95% of the people can play 95% of all games without serious issues, most without ANY issues Then What the HELL IS THE PROBLEM.

The problem is quite simply, with your (a) math (b) lack of FACTUAL data - no, pulling numbers (95%) out of your thin air, doesn't count as being factual. What IS factual, is stuff like this.

Forget the GF3 launch and the driver issues they had. Forget the GF2 launch and the driver issues they had, Forget the Det 40.41 debaucle...

I could care less. The issue is about ATI's piss-poor drivers. We're not discussing nVidia, Matrox or anyone else. Yes, they too have some driver issues - but you CANNOT compare the state of those boards drivers to that of ATI's. Thats just laughable.

I am firmly neutral and don't pick sides. All I know is that nVidia and Matrox boards have tridionally worked out of the box.

Or the fact that it was over a year before the Shaders were correctly programed for on the GF series. Etc etc etc...

1. It wasn't a year

2. The shaders did work. So, I dunno what correctly programmed means. You must be thinking of those BAD ATI drivers again. Thats an example of something thats not correctly programmed

3. There were NO games that used shaders at the time

NO DRIVERS ARE PERFECT. PERIOD. PERIOD. PERIOD.

I didn't know that this was a point of contention. But thanks for giving your CAPSLOCK key an excercise workout. :rolleyes:

Here is the kicker like you.. I dont give a rip what you reply with... or try to slam me with. You are WAY overstating problems that do not effect most games, and taking the results and calling The whole rubbish.

Whatever. You must be saying that as a pre-emptive strike because you know for a fact that I'm going take your points apart without even batting an eyelid.

It is totally and completely unballanced and unpofessional and someones IQ is not a licence for outright BIAS.

uhm, right. Not sure what that was, but I'm not going to hurt my head by guessing. After all, us low IQ netizens take a while to process stuff. :rolleyes:
 
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