Should the UN be disbanded?

Should the UN be disbanded?

  • No, but the UN needs reforming to be more effective.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes. However, a new organisation should be established to better enforce world issues.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes. Such an organisation is no longer relevant in today's world. Countries should form alliances ba

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    48
Yes, the UN should be done away with in favor of a new organisation with similar goal but more effective.

Indeed, but not yet... It should eventually dissolve all nations as we know them today... It should become the United Nations of Mankind, and erase all borders, unite all armies, and have a World president. No more wars, for all are one... this shall be necessary when space colonization begins to fragment us.
 
Tahir said:
Why are the UN HQ's are in New York and not, for example, in Moscow?

First person with the correct *"accepted" answer gets a prize ;)
If you're going to have it in a cold place, at least make the shopping good for the wives?
 
Tahir said:
Why are the UN HQ's are in New York and not, for example, in Moscow?

Keep your enemies close and your friends closer. ;)

Russ, I think France is still a big shopping destination. Hey, I hear Iraq's UN Ambassador is headed there tomorrow--maybe he can still share une demi-tasse de cafe sur les Champs Elysee with Mugabe while their wives shop at their country's expense! :p
 
zidane1strife said:
Yes, the UN should be done away with in favor of a new organisation with similar goal but more effective.

Indeed, but not yet... It should eventually dissolve all nations as we know them today... It should become the United Nations of Mankind, and erase all borders, unite all armies, and have a World president. No more wars, for all are one... this shall be necessary when space colonization begins to fragment us.

Is that how the things are in your dimension? :LOL:
 
Humus said:
LOL.

The voting system should change too, instead of one country one vote we should have something similar to what EU has, you get voting power according to your population, but not directly proportional. You could say give the US with 280 million people 5-6 votes and Sweden with it's 9 million 1 vote, the UK with 60 million (I think) 3-4 votes etc. Permanent members should go away too. Either that, or everyone is part of the security counsil.

How many votes then India (1100 million) will have?? ;) What about China (1400 million)?? :D
 
DemoCoder said:
UN membership should be means tested. No dictatorships allowed. Must not only ratify human rights conventions, but must adhere to them within the laws of their own country.

No more thugocracies getting to vote in the UN. Why give someone the right to vote in the general assembly or UNSC if they don't give their own people the right to vote?

Pretty much agree here but theres no way the US or most major nations will ever allow it. Every major player has his own little set of client states... Also the problem of democracy vs dictatorship doesnt deal with the fact some dictatorships are better than some terribly corrupt democracies. I think theres now way either a republican or democratic administration would allow an organistaion to replace the UN that didnt allow China for instance.

Means testing by that formula is weak but there should be some kind of means testing and I think its one of human rights. If some terrible democracy (a pseudo democracy really) abuses a minority then the means test will be useless whereas some dictator (however few of them there really are) has a profound respect for human rights woukdnt be allowed in?... I can think of some terrible south american 'democracies' getting access whereas benign arab oil kingdoms wouldnt...

I voted reform for the UN. Def should see the creation of some commitees that dont allow regimes, democratic or not, to participate or chair some committees. But the really important one of the security council may be virtually impossible to reform. No one will accept loss of veto.

Major UN reform outside of that is the right to some form of independant taxation outside of member dues which are grossly insufficent interms of funding the most basic functions. UN needs 150-200 billion a year not the measly 6.5 billion it has now. This could be had by some modest financial transactions tax. It could pay for some serious humanitarian interventions without having to wait forever for some member or members to finally get around to doing anything about a given issue. It should also give the UN a modest professional military for emergencies like Rwanda.
 
Russia was given the option of hosting the UN HQ's in Moscow.

Russia's response was that the UN would be just another tool of the US and therefore from the beginning wanted to try and disassociate themselves from the UN.

Therefore once a Resolution was passed against anything the Russians wanted they could say to the world, 'bah UN is Amereeeecan controlled - no relevance to Russian might.. Amereeecans are weak, long live the Communists.'

Or something ... heh .. OK I added the Russian quote.
 
Deepak said:
Humus said:
LOL.

The voting system should change too, instead of one country one vote we should have something similar to what EU has, you get voting power according to your population, but not directly proportional. You could say give the US with 280 million people 5-6 votes and Sweden with it's 9 million 1 vote, the UK with 60 million (I think) 3-4 votes etc. Permanent members should go away too. Either that, or everyone is part of the security counsil.

How many votes then India (1100 million) will have?? ;) What about China (1400 million)?? :D

7-8 I suppose. It's more like sqrt() or log() function, but no country can fall behind 1 and end up with zero votes. Well, that's roughly my idea anyway.
 
Perhaps we should use GDP instead of people?

Or, to give the the UN a budget, let countries bid for votes. ;)
 
Silent_One said:
Pete said:
Keep your enemies close and your friends closer. ;)

I think it's "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" :)

I purposefully reversed them with a wink. Fear my unilateral sense of humor! :)
 
RussSchultz said:
Perhaps we should use GDP instead of people?

This is a bad idea....means even totally western dominated UN....I think time has come that western people must realise that their domination is over, now it is time for Asians to dominate...this millanium belongs to us..

BTW, even if we take GDP....China is 2nd and India is 5th//////
 
Deepak said:
RussSchultz said:
Perhaps we should use GDP instead of people?

This is a bad idea....means even totally western dominated UN....I think time has come that western people must realise that their domination is over, now it is time for Asians to dominate...this millanium belongs to us..

BTW, even if we take GDP....China is 2nd and India is 5th//////

The next millenium belongs to noone. Unless something happens to retard progress, I seriously doubt nation states will matter in 100+ years, moreover, I highly doubt there will be a "dominant" race economically. Europeans took several hundred years to go through modernization, but the developing countries will be able to leap over several centuries of development by importing technology.

However, current dominance is based on productivity. I doubt that physical labor will be required in 100 years, especially if nanotechnology comes to fruition. Many "services" in the service sector will continue to see more automation as well. This will be a great equalizing force. And if everyone can buy the same software, or the same nano-tech assemblers, there won't be much differential in the amount of each country can produce.

Comparative advantage in production and trade will come down to trading only scarce elemental resources, geographic position, and intellectual property.

There is no long run advantage that the Asians will have, unless you want to consider population density and crowded living conditions as an inherent advantage. Yes, 2 billion Asians will raise more tax revenues for their government, I'm not sure government budget size is really an advantage.

Improvements in manufacturing technology will more or less equalize the differences between cultures over the long run by eliminating differences in worker productivity and labor costs. May not seem that way, but when you talk about the next 1,000 years, you're talking about a time span that's more like billions of years given the current rates of advancement.

However, I think it's going to take another 30-50 years, for China and India to get to the West's living standards. Indians who graduate from IIT and immigrate to the West have a really skewed view of India's overall condition. Like the Wired crowd in the 90s, they overinflate the importance of the small percentage of their people who have achieved great things in the software industry or in Bollywood, while ignoring the real lack of progress in the other 98% of the population. Hell, the literacy rate is still around 50%, and the infrastructure, even in major cities, is in shambles. Shoddy electric power, poor water, etc. Still a long way to go.


You see the same thing in China. Visit Shanghai, Hong Kong. Wonderful, super-high-tech, modern city. Now go look at the towns and rural areas that aren't in the 4-5 major cities. Total squalor. Poverty beyond imagination. The gap between the well off and the poor is huge.

Someone in Shanghai can earn 100 times the salary of someone who is an outsider. Shanghaiese perceive a China where their standards of living have grown at a tremendous rate. To them, China's progress is unbelievable, and they extrapolate it a few years and see themselves as the #1 country. Someone from the countryside will have a completely different viewpoint.

(p.s. yes, I have been to India. I have managed outsourced projects at our company's Indian Development Center.)
 
One of the REASONS of this poverty in India is our colonial legacy....you know our history...britishers...

BTW, about automation, wouldnt that result in more poverty in developing countries....less jobs...

and dont you think that the reason why western nations are rich is becse they were able to exploit us in 1800/1900...?

BTW, is globalisation really the cure for our ills...or we need something else?
 
There is little indication that elimination of work will lead to prosperity for all. Pretty much only the investors are reaping the rewards now...

Slavery and the exploitation of India and other colonies indeed provided much of the seed wealth that has gone a long way to make the west what it is today. The west has been very cheap in return for that wealth. I can understand antagonisms on the part of many who (especially the edcuated ones in the third world) now demand help and reparations of some sort.

And the west can afford it easily now. Productivity is astouding today... To say work may be irrelevant in a couple generations is to ignor the fact it becmoing less important nowadays as well. Yet the 40 hr work week lives on while incomes have dropped like a rock in the last 30 years (tho are stable in the last 10 or so) and its not enough yet with real unemployment very high just about everywhere...

If real unemployment (very few stats are honest about that anymore) were low wed see serious wage inflation... but its very low and flat in many places with debts rising and consumerism stalling... We have plenty of technology now we dont need to wait a hundred years for serious socio-economic reforms that reflect real wealth creation. It wont be easy. Every major hurdle in reforms of that kind have been brutal. And of al places I expect it to take place not with the terrible poverty of Aftican and Asia and South America. I expect it to take place here in the North America. Were the ones used to a good standard of living. And the current regime will not produce prosperity for most here if it isnt changed. I can see hints of it every few years ... slowly and painfully but people are slowly realizing, even with such distractions as war, that things just arent right or fair in the slightest.
 
I have a hard time parsing your message.

#1 incomes have not dropped like a rock. (please do not cite the urban legend that real wages in the US have fallen. This has been debunked already, since the original thesis that got widespread relied on inaccurate inflation data. But even if you accept that the inflation data may be wrong in the other direction, the proper thing would be to say that their growth is stagnant, not that they "dropped like a rock") Today, people work 40 hour work weeks and have 2 incomes, because they consume alot more than in the past. Consumption has outpaced productivity growth. The only way to sustain it is to work longer, or borrow money. The fact that consumption has gone WAY UP over the last twenty years is proof. If people were working 40 hours or more, or 2-income family just to sustain the same standard of living they had in the 50s and 60s, they wouldn't be consuming such a large multiple of what they were in that period.

People today not only own more "stuff" (computers, vcrs, phones, tvs, 2 cars, etc) but use more services (monthly phone bill, mobile phone bill, electricity, gas, internet DSL, satellite TV, renting blockbuster videos, eating out at restaurants, etc)

The amount of disposable income or debt is about the same, because we are not a nation of savers.



#2 India is impoverished by more than just colonialism. I don't buy the theory that left alone, the rest of the world today would have turned out just like us. Nations can be impoverished because of their natural resources or, culture too. Western democracy and capitalism is not an inevitable result of progress, but a chance development, that's why it was so rare in history. Exploitation alone does not account for the truly astounding progress the west has made. In history, many nations had "growth spurts" of development, that were not triggered by exploitation of other lands. Yes, invasion can retard progress in some situations if progress was already happening. On the other hand, invasion can also bring benefits if progress was happening, by cross fertilization of cultures. Britain was invaded many times over history, and the Romans, Celts, Vikings, Normans, etc all brought culture and technology with them. "Closed" nations that resisted outside influences (like China) rapidly fell behind. (and the few colonial concessions, such as Shanghai and Hong Kong are incredibly wealthy compared to the areas that weren't "opened")


#3 Technology and productivity growth are the only long term ways to raise the standard of living. All else is merely reshuffling the pie.

Either you produce more with less, or you produce new things. Taken to the extreme, automation builds everything, and humans return to a hunter-gatherer stage where they only have to pick fruits from the trees of automated factories, or nanotechnology.

The developed nations, to the extent that they produce a surplus through increased productivity, can help other nations catch up, but this can only be done if we keep increasing productivity.

And increasing socialism or unionism in the US isn't going to alter this fact. The rich in the US roughly pay 50% of the national budget. Even if you were to confiscate this amount of money and redistribute it, it would have a neglible affect on the middle class's income.

If you want people's incomes to go up, invest money to increase productivity. If you try to divert too much of the productivity gains away from corporate profits, all you'll do is damage other people's retirement funds. Furthermore, you may retard investment which might curtail corporate expansion, which might push down wages or the labor demand.

My point originally was, as we become less dependant on humans for industrial manufacturing, the differences between nations capacity to produce will depend more on their natural resources, their internal organization, their intellectual property, and less on the people's labor of that country.

This means, it would be possible for a third world country to (with cash) buy and transfer productive technology from the world market, and build modern consumer goods, without neccessarily having to reform its population and go through generations of steps to arrive at that situation naturally. They can "leap frog" all the steps that the major industrial nations went through, by "buying progress"


For example, let's imagine a miraculous nanotechnological assembler, that can build any structure that you can program into it. This means, with the right inputs (instructions on what to build, energy and materials) you can build anything that anyone else is capable of building. There is no longer any inherent advantage that a nation will have from its labor pool alone. US could build aircraft carriers, but so could anyone else.

In fact, with such an assembler, scarcity would almost be eradicated and the need to work to support yourself would be minimal. The basics of life would essentially be free.


The current "crisis" of the West, if you want to call it that, is one of hedonism. People don't want to work hard and educate themselves anymore. They just want to party hard and buy lots of stuff. I mean, what percentage of the population is even studying in the engineering and scientific fields, vs those who graduate with some bullshit degree, just to make enough money so they can go into debt buying a fancy house and car?

Near where I live is Cupertino California. In the high school, 90% of the students are Asian. At my office, I am a white, American minority. The vast majority of the employees are Asian or immigrants. And that's not because they are paid less.

Why is this? Because Americans aren't going into hard-core fields. Americans aren't getting Phds and Masters. Americans are partying it up on campus. You can see this trend in Japan too. The young generation are not hard workers or savers, they are consumers.
 
Name one good thing that UK did for India....infact they killed millions during their colonial rule, now they talk about human rights... , I wonder if they ever apologised for that....

But I believe that atleast europe's run is over, currently US is in the lead...I see after 2020 India and China challenging US...becse India and China are huge markets with largest middle class..
 
Again Im talking about individual incomes and not household incomes . The loss of individual income has not been debunked. Its in fact pretty dishonest to talk househould incomes when we know 70% of households in the early 70's were single income whereas now they are 80% dual incomes. I suppose its also an urban legend about individual credit card debt that went from 2600$ individual debt load in 1991 to 8500$ in 2000? And I keep hearing about factories functioning only at at 60-70% capacity...

Keep bearying your head in the sand demo we already talked about this a while back quite a bit.

University admissions have steadily increased over the years. Those who hold degrees are an ever greater part of the population not less ... I dont see this trend of bullshit degrees in canada but I suppose some do that in the states. Ive heard of weird degrees like golfing... But seriously how many are going for things like that? The idea we are consuming too much I think is nuts. We are consuming largely what we are producing and I keep hearing about lack of consumption on biz news so I dont think consuming less would be a good thing for the economy...

The main issue is that we are consuming on credit and I have a hard time believing we are consuming on credit because we are too lazy to study when I have cousin engineers who earn 25g as civil enginneers in their first couple years. In fact the highest paid professional fields would suffer wage pressures if too many people studied. Demand for jobs there is not that high.

You denounce the hedonism of the middle class I denounce the hedonism of the rich and I think theres blame to go around for both as some of that consumption should be had overseas but even if that happens id see the consumption of the middle class is the much healthier of the two. Id rather see 10 houses being built than one mansion...

I dont think we'll be able to transfer as many people into intellectual fields as we sent form thr farm to the factory floor in the 19th century. We really are seeing the end of work thu technology but we arent adapting to this new reality. This isnt happening a hundred years from now its happening now. Producitvity in Canada back in the mid 50's was about 50% return on individual gross wages of an employee now its over 400% and rapidly climbing all the while consumerism is hitting a wall.

If you dont see any spreading of the ever increasing wealth being spread around either thru wages or taxes then we ahve a problem. I see wages being addressed and thru an eventual shorter work week. Its simple if we produce more per average then we need to benefit more from that production. And its not just thru higher consumption via credit which has amazingly increased over the years to keep consumption alive...

Theres also a knowledge barrier that will have to be respected. Machines will eventualy be doing research that is now done by masters level people. Its not just industrial work that will be eliminated by the technological revolution. This isnt just a repeat of ealry industrialization. Its been covered in so many books I dont know where to start. But unless we become cyborgs I dont see what role at a 40hr a week rate we humans will still have to play in the gears of the tech economy.

The role of humans in the system will be more hedonistic but then again we are more hedonists than we were each succeeding last few generations. I dont see that much wrong with the fact we are living off the progress of past generations. For sure there will still be vrey smart people diogn some very difficult research and work in the highest fields in the next feew gens but to say everyone should follow there at the current rate of 40hr a week or even at any rate of work when the demands will be so stringent on who qualifies for such high feilds of study and work I dont think is realistic.

I already think that the move to a workless society will be very hard psychologically on individuals. I dont see why we should also make it hard economically for them...
 
Back
Top