Shadows with flashlight

[see colon]

this is one of the first things i noticed about the flashlight in DooM3, actualy. at first i thought it wasn't doing true projected shadows at all, but after a bit of playing i found certain situations that it appears to prperly project shadows onto objects. i think what is happening is that the range of a projected shadow from the flashlight is being artificially limited to a certain distance, making the shadow "float" in the air if there is nothing to project onto.

i'm quite upset that the "unified lighting" that was so pimped and hyped in the course of DooM3's development has been basicly gimpified and watered down to the point that i feel it is almost redundant in many situations. by that i mean, lighting models from other, competing technologies (farcry, painkiller) have nearly the same effect about 80% of the time at twice the performance.

and it's sad when the lighting in a budget title looks more realistic than id software's premier engine (and the textures are high res too).

 

[Reverend]

robustivity

Is that an actual word? I thought it should be "robustness".

 

[Sxotty]

see colon that picture looks like crap man. But woo didly

 

[see colon]

that picture looks like crap

it is from a crap game, no doubt. but the flashlight properly projects shadows. the game is pretty old, too. it was reased around October 2003 iirc.
edit- year of release, woops

 

[jb]

the game is pretty old, too. it was reased around October 2004 iirc.

Now thats sad trend to see, here is another game that not relased yet and its old already

PS just kidding

 

[kyleb]

I don't see anything in that shot that is better than Doom3.

 

[Guden Oden]

it is from a crap game, no doubt. but the flashlight properly projects shadows.

No it does NOT!

Look at the flashlight, it's pointing in the wrong direction in comparison to the circle on the wall. Also, the shadow of the man is much MUCH too large compared to the distance he's standing from the wall. He'd have to stand a lot closer to the lightsource to make a shadow that big, and then he'd blot out most of it and it would look just like in doom3.

You mumble about shadows being artificially limited, blah blah, but it seems that despite all the previous replies in this thread before you even posted this you still don't realize that's what shadows look like when the light source almost coincides with the eye-line.

Also, the lighting model hasn't been watered down one iota, WTF are you talking about? Far cry's lighting doesn't look anywhere near as good as Doom3, it isn't per-pixel lighting, and Painkiller? Don't make me laugh. Surely you must be joking?

 

[Sigma]

i'm quite upset that the "unified lighting" that was so pimped and hyped in the course of DooM3's development has been basicly gimpified and watered down to the point that i feel it is almost redundant in many situations. by that i mean, lighting models from other, competing technologies (farcry, painkiller) have nearly the same effect about 80% of the time at twice the performance.

Most lights in Doom3 are static (in the same place), not gimpified, because it isn't. Doom3 doesn't show it a lot, but try playing MP Tomiko Reactor. Try turning off the generator or watch as every light turns on when you enter an area. Do you know why does FarCry has "twice" the performance? Because it doesn't do somethings properly like shadows for every light, and that is not unified. If it did, it would probably be half the performance...

Hint: play tomiko reactor level. Turn of the generator. Walk to a warning light (they are very few and small). Notice that even those lights light your gun. That is unified...

and it's sad when the lighting in a budget title looks more realistic than id software's premier engine (and the textures are high res too).

Realistic? What do you mean? We all know monsters and zombies don't exist... Of course a real world scene will always look more "realistic" than a Mars station invaded by hell creatures...

 

[Sxotty]

But there was some gimpification of D3's model no selfshadowing, monsters dont' therefore shadow eachother. They will if you turn it on though.

No player shadow, when you turn it on it looks silly I tried it and was stoked to do it, but since you have no feet it looks funny to look down and see your shadow randomly start, well you can imagine.

 

[Ylandro]

What I find much stranger, is that in LOTS of situations, the shadow seems to hang in the air about a foot away. Especially vissible on railings, pipes etc.

That's mostly because of the lack of ambient lighting. When it goes completely black, you lose much of the depth perception.

That's certainly a big part of the problem...

Now that I think of it... The lack of soft shadows is probably another part. In reality you will never see a well definied shadow of a railing or pipe over distances of meters. It's always softened, often to a point where it's difficult to see at all, because the lightsource is finite, doesn't cast exactly parallel beams etc...

Being used to shadows only being 'hard' within a few inches of the object, our brains probably tell us when we see a hard shadow in D3 that the object must be very close by. Thus we get the feeling they're floating in the air a few inches away. Unless, it's painfully obvious how the shadow is cast, i.e. when it's broken over different surfaces, or looking from the side...


Hmmm... nice illustration that a mathematically correct rendering can still give results that look completely wrong.

 

[Richard]

But there was some gimpification of D3's model no selfshadowing, monsters dont' therefore shadow eachother. They will if you turn it on though.

Well, that was done to make things look better. That self-shadow mod makes some parts look very coherent but also really undermines the whole quality because of the harshness of the shadowvolumes on normalmapped characters, etc. "Gimpification" implies something was removed to achieve good speed.

No player shadow, when you turn it on it looks silly I tried it and was stoked to do it, but since you have no feet it looks funny to look down and see your shadow randomly start, well you can imagine.

I agree with you there, the player shadow is great except when you look down and you feel like you're floating. Hey, that's an idea for a mod.

 

[Ylandro]

Most lights in Doom3 are static (in the same place), not gimpified, because it isn't.

Actually, most lamps you see in D3 do NOT cast light. Just turn up the brightness and contrast, and look at the hangar at the beginning of the game. Try correlating shadows to lamps...

It's painfully obvious that while you see some thirty lamps in the hangar, there are very few, maybe only two (!) true lightsources...

All these lamps on the walls and above the door are fake.

Obviously necessary for performance, but it sort of kills the whole idea of the unified lighting model...

 

[see colon]

Also, the shadow of the man is much MUCH too large compared to the distance he's standing from the wall. He'd have to stand a lot closer to the lightsource to make a shadow that big, and then he'd blot out most of it and it would look just like in doom3.

ok, so the shadow should just float in the air like it does in doom?

Do you know why does FarCry has "twice" the performance? Because it doesn't do somethings properly like shadows for every light, and that is not unified

i never said that farcry (or painkiller, for that matter) has a unified lighting model. what i did say, is that if doom3 used a non-unified lighting system like those featured in other games (farcry, painkiller) it would perform better and have nearly the same effect 80% of the time.

Hint: play tomiko reactor level. Turn of the generator. Walk to a warning light (they are very few and small). Notice that even those lights light your gun. That is unified...

no, it's dynamic, not unified. the lighting system in doom3 (the game, not the engine) is being artificially limied in a number of ways, like...

selfshadowing, monsters dont' therefore shadow eachother
No player shadow

not everything is lit the same in doom3 (the game, not the engine), thus making the lighting system NOT unified. alpha textures don't cast shadows when you shine the flashlight on them either. try looking at the grates and wire that are alpha textures.

here's a couple of pictures to chew on...

look close at the shadow of the engineer. it's hard to see because of the darkness and general lack of contrasting colors in doom, but you can see it basicly floatong in the air. it's not being projected all the way back to the rock walls behind him, and the shadow of his head isn't wraping around the crane.

look at the railing shadow not being wraped around the crawlspace just to the right of the crosshair. there's a bunch of geometry there but none of it is being wrapped by the shadow at all. the shadow just floats for most of the image, but if you look close you can see a slight change in angle for the shadow on the righthand side of the screen. not sure exactly what it's doing but it's not properly wrapping around the pipes on the ceiling.

 

[Luminescent]

Does anyone know why the player's shadow does not include his feet?

 

[Luminescent]

robustivity

Is that an actual word? I thought it should be "robustness".

Just a comic reference to Bush's "stratigery" in the Bush-Gore debates.

 

[Sigma]

not everything is lit the same in doom3 (the game, not the engine), thus making the lighting system NOT unified. alpha textures don't cast shadows when you shine the flashlight on them either. try looking at the grates and wire that are alpha textures.

About the selfshadowing and player shadow... Just turn it on. It is turned of (it is on by default?) because it looks bad or weird.

And try to come up with a way to have shadow volumes cast shadows from geometry faked from textures... That would be great...

In fact, artist have to make materials like grates not to cast shadows because, in terms of geometry it is a simple quad or something, and since the engine has a unified lighting solution treating every light and surface the same, that quad with the grate would project a shadow of a quad....

 

[kyleb]

see colon, your first pic shows the shadows playing off the bumpmaping on the rocks and is an exlent example of the effectiveness of the doom3 lighting system. It is a rather low quality shot, but blow it up and you can see the detail that goes into making the shadow. The second pic simply doesn't show much bend in the shadow of the pipe becasue you are practicly shooting the flashlight right up it. If you moved off to the side a bit the shadow would show the definition of the world geometry a lot better.

 

[see colon]

and since the engine has a unified lighting solution treating every light and surface the same, that quad with the grate would project a shadow of a quad....

but it doesn't have a unified lighting solution, otherwise the quad would be projecting a black box for a shadow. that was my point, the unified lighting system hyped up before doom3's release has been stripped down. not all objects are treated the same by the lighting system in the game, so the system is not unified.

see colon, your first pic shows the shadows playing off the bumpmaping on the rocks and is an exlent example of the effectiveness of the doom3 lighting system. It is a rather low quality shot, but blow it up and you can see the detail that goes into making the shadow.

if you saw it in motion you would disagree with yourself. i purposly picked an area near the beginging of the game so it's easily accessable for everyone. the engineers shadow is either floating, or the crane and the rock wall are parallel, which they are not. the shadow doesn't wrap around the crane at all, and it doesn't appear to project all the way to the rock wall, either.

 

[pat777]

Shadows do not float in the air in Doom 3. You have to look closely to notice it's not really floating. The shape of the shadow depends on what the shadow casts on so it's not just floating.

 

[kyleb]

if you saw it in motion you would disagree with yourself. i purposly picked an area near the beginging of the game so it's easily accessable for everyone. the engineers shadow is either floating, or the crane and the rock wall are parallel, which they are not. the shadow doesn't wrap around the crane at all, and it doesn't appear to project all the way to the rock wall, either.

I just loaded up a new game and I get too much light on the far wall for there to be any shadow at all; but that just goes to show the nature of the unified lighting system.


Oh and I missed this one earlier:

Actually, most lamps you see in D3 do NOT cast light. Just turn up the brightness and contrast, and look at the hangar at the beginning of the game. Try correlating shadows to lamps...

It's painfully obvious that while you see some thirty lamps in the hangar, there are very few, maybe only two (!) true lightsources...

All these lamps on the walls and above the door are fake.

Obviously necessary for performance, but it sort of kills the whole idea of the unified lighting model...

That is just absurd, try turning on r_showlights 3 to see all the lights in bounding boxes and count them in console; that room is packed with lights.