Scorpio E3 messaging

[iroboto]

I definitely think we're going to see the return of Halo 5 for Scorpio, the engine that 343 has been working on has pretty large scalability, and there are a lot of opportunities for Halo 5 to look phenomenal on Scorpio.

Just looking at this very old DF review:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...works-and-what-doesnt-in-halo-5-tech-analysis

Some key quotes:

• Cut-scenes: Storytelling has always been a key element to the Halo experience and Halo 5 delivers the most technically impressive cut-scenes in series history. While the intro and outro sequences are pre-rendered videos, the overwhelming majority of cinematic sequences in the game are rendered completely in real-time. With high quality shader and materials work in effect along with excellent bokeh depth of field, performance captured animations, and impressive lighting, Halo 5 looks its best during these 30fps sequences.

Cinematics were amazing in quality, and running on 1.3TF at 30fps. One would have to ask if this level of detail would be possible in realtime. If so, huge thumbs up. For reference:

But then again those are cinematic, looking at the actual game DF indicated that all of these could be improved with H5, though I would rather have it just look like the cutscenes in realtime with 4K textures and let the dyrnamic resolution take over. There's definitely a case for scalability, looking at this title and the Forza series, maybe even GoW, and you could have dramatic upticks in visual fidelity.

• Image quality: While the dynamic resolution system is impressive, the reality is that the game spends the overwhelming majority of its time well under full 1080p. When combined with sparse anti-aliasing coverage this often results in scenes exhibiting aliasing and blurring artefacts simultaneously. This is further impacted by limited texture filtering, smearing surface textures at oblique angles. In fact, the selected texture filtering has a stronger impact on overall presentation than resolution.
• Half-rate animation: While the game operates at 60fps, active entities within the world will actually animate at half-rate when they reach a set distance from the player. We're basically seeing 30 frames of animation per second while the game continues to operate at 60 in these situations. Halo 5 often places huge numbers of entities within each scene. You can have multiple Spartans fighting alongside locals against a huge hoard of enemy forces. In the busiest of scenarios, we see more active on-screen enemies than in any other Halo game. Yet, managing so many actors in a scene places additional strain on the CPU which could drop performance. It would appear that this system was implemented to prevent such a load from tanking the frame-rate. It's successful but, more than any other sacrifice made, it looks rather jarring during normal gameplay. The distance in which enemies begin to animate at half-rate is just a bit too close to the player for our liking.
• Lighting and shadows: Halo 5 makes heavy use of pre-calculated lighting in order to improve rendering speed with more dynamic shadows and light sources limited to active elements within the scene. In order to improve rendering speed, a number of tricks are employed here that have an impact on visual quality. For instance, dynamic shadows are regularly culled from view near the player, while shadow maps exhibit noticeable jagged artefacts. The greater issue is the way in which the game swaps between the different levels of quality. The constant adjustments being made ultimately create a sense of instability across the world.

• effects: Smoke, fire and other alpha blended operations require more from the GPU and can drop the frame-rate in close proximity to the viewport. 343 has taken two different approaches to this problem. Firstly, alpha effects used during gameplay are rendered at a lower resolution much of the time. This requires less from the GPU and as a result, performance remains smoother. Environmental effects use a different approach - when the player's view is in close proximity to any sort of constant alpha effects, the effects in question are culled from view.
• Texture quality: Despite the move to a more realistic materials system, the actual resolution of many assets leaves a lot to be desired. Throughout the game we stumbled across low resolution textures and normal maps applied to key surfaces. The prevalence of these textures contrasts with otherwise high resolution assets leading to an inconsistent appearance. The surface of Meridian in particular stands out as an area that needs additional work with chunky, low resolution tyre tracks impacting an otherwise beautiful scene.
• Level of detail: As in many games, object detail is adjusted based on proximity. This means that models use lower quality assets from a distance with higher quality models swapped in as players moves closer. The issue here is that these LODs often appear too close to the player and lack any sort of transition. Debris is also used liberally throughout the game to add extra detail to the terrain. As in previous games, a type of dithering is used to transition these elements into view. In Halo 5, many of these elements continue to exhibiting dithering patterns even when the player is standing right on top.

 

[AzBat]

Haven't a clue. I can see the problems clearly and you know Microsoft have a particular segment in mind for the event, which is unlikely going to be anybody on forums like this as they are generally well informed and have already decied on whether Scorpio is in their imminent future. Being able to see problems is very different from being able to solve those problems.

About what I expected.

iRoboto just stole some of my idea. The extra 4gb of memory is where they need put their attention at: so 4k texture packs is where they will exceed the competition. But they should also take the Scorpio version & compare it against the Windows 10/Xbox Anywhere version using Ultra settings. A $400-500 console against a $400-$500 spec'ed Win10 PC would be cool.

Or maybe they don't need to get into the tech or any comparisons? They could just have the developers say their game looks best on Scorpio, better than any other console or that it's the same as the Win10 version in 4k using Ultra settings. That's one good thing about getting the tech out of the first.

Tommy McClain

 

[AlNom]

Cinematics were amazing in quality, and running on 1.3TF at 30fps. One would have to ask if this level of detail would be possible in realtime. If so, huge thumbs up. For reference:


But then again those are cinematic, looking at the actual game DF indicated that all of these could be improved with H5, i would rather have it just look like the cutscenes in realtime with 4K textures and let the dyrnamic resolution take over.

hm.... Might not be doable given the baked light probes. I probably wouldn't expect much more than what we have with Halo Forge.

 

[iroboto]

hm.... Might not be doable given the baked light probes.

oh right true. Baked light probes do provide a level of fidelity that is too tailored for the camera.

 

[BRiT]

They just need to show off the Scorpio special edition of Minecraft.

 

[AzBat]

They just need to show off the Scorpio special edition of Minecraft.

You mean the Windows 10 Xbox Play Anywhere version that supports their new mixed reality headsets?

Tommy McClain

 

[BRiT]

You mean the Windows 10 Xbox Play Anywhere version that supports their new mixed reality headsets?

I wasn't thinking of that, I was just being a cheeky bastard and using the lowest resolution highest selling game I could think of.

But ... that would be nice to show off their AR-Headsets. It's practically expected that they use it again for pushing how interactive AR can be.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

They just need to show off the Scorpio special edition of Minecraft.

4K 8-bit Textures!!! YES!

Regards,
SB

 

[turkey]

Microsoft at least have the option DF did not and can go dynamic on resolution which they already do on some titles and seems even more beneficial or rather less noticeable at 4k.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Microsoft at least have the option DF did not and can go dynamic on resolution which they already do on some titles and seems even more beneficial or rather less noticeable at 4k.

If you're majoring your console on 4K two words which undermine that are dynamic resolution. Risky.

 

[Jay]

this is how i think one way to go about it is.
what makes it a premium x1?
1. every x360 bc game looks, performs, and plays better
2. every single current x1 game looks, performs and plays better
3. features like 4k game streaming and 4k dvr
4. VR support

what makes Scorpio a true 4k machine, uhd Blu-ray, 4k streaming and true 4k games. This is how they differentiate between x1s and competition to the Scorpio.

something I've mentioned in the past but some people thought it wasn't good as they thought it was basically redefining the term native etc.
but we're already seeing it, Sony dynamic 4k, ms true 4k.
maybe true 4k is already the pivot i think they need to do, and true doesn't just mean native?

they could say what makes a true 4k console and games?
true 4k stands for
1. Smooth framerates (for the elite gamer vrr who plays on monitor, and the future etc)
2. 4k assets (more memory so higher details)
3. Native 4k resolution
having 2 out of 3 you will get the best 4k experience, with the power of scorpio we can even do 3 out of 3, but we also allow the power to be used to do the best combination that the devs think is best for their games.

could have something in background demonstrating each one when talking about it.
for the native resolution demo have an x1s upscaled 4k pic, side by side to native Scorpio 4k pic, blown up for effect.
why is Scorpio true 4k games machine when x1s isn't? The x1s can upscale to 4k, why isn't that true 4k.
it's because it doesn't do the 3 pillars in games to make it true 4k, and no console currently does.

oh and if you only have a 1080p display, well every 4k game will super sample down, so you will get an amazing full hd experience!

that sounds like a long complicated presentation, but it's not, it's just highlighting the benefits and define what true 4k means, not go into the details that was in the 4pro reveal event.

 

[Clukos]

I want them to focus less on the hardware and more on what the hardware allows the software to be. Show us games, show new IP and make it less about the CPU/GPU only very few people give a crap about. Technical jargon should be kept to a minimum, let the games do the talking. They'll probably also show the new UI, I'm expecting some great features there, given that it's MS.

 

[Jay]

I want them to focus less on the hardware and more on what the hardware allows the software to be. Show us games, show new IP and make it less about the CPU/GPU only very few people give a crap about. Technical jargon should be kept to a minimum, let the games do the talking. They'll probably also show the new UI, I'm expecting some great features there, given that it's MS.

i don't disagree with your sentiment, but as the games fundamentally will be the same including new IP, you have to show and explain what makes Scorpio different than the x1s and the competition, and why you would want to pay more for it instead of picking up an x1.

i don't expect any more technical detail apart from 12GB gddr5 than what was shown at the last E3.


that's why i think they will demonstrate what it gives you in games during the breakdown of the benefits of Scorpio.
then make show about games after games.
What and where the games are coming from is a whole different topic. due to marketing deals, this may be why they have to push the narrative that anything you see during E3 will look and play the best on Scorpio. Regardless if the publisher says it or not.

 

[iroboto]

Well, I agree with clukos that technical information can be a drag in a hype conference. But some mid point where Apple goes where it's good enough the public understands but not so technical that it tunes people out.
Talking about 4k, 4k textures is probably sufficient and showing side by side comparisons.

Then it's time to let the software speak for itself. Too often MS tries to control everything, and gamers are pretty good at reading this. I think the public would appreciate if they step back a little and have more confidence in their product than to be completely controlling every aspect of the narrative.

 

[iroboto]

i don't know the answer to this, so perhaps a dev can chime in.
We know the results of CBR is very good at bringing a title up in resolution. But in almost all cases of CBR, we've seen 1080p -> up 2160CB but they are still leveraging 1080p assets at best;

What will the result be of CBR 1080p -> 4K with 4K assets ? Will the results be as good? If not, then the case for native is strengthened.

 

[Clukos]

i don't know the answer to this, so perhaps a dev can chime in.
We know the results of CBR is very good at bringing a title up in resolution. But in almost all cases of CBR, we've seen 1080p -> up 2160CB but they are still leveraging 1080p assets at best;

What will the result be of CBR 1080p -> 4K with 4K assets ? Will the results be as good? If not, then the case for native is strengthened.

PC version of Watch Dogs 2:

4k native w/ ultra textures (only available on PC): https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4272/34926840336_48b1d4bf46_o.png
4k CBR w/ ultra textures: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4251/34835481131_0d77acd2d5_o.png

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not a lot of difference.

 

[iroboto]

Not a lot of difference.

agreed, there's some (looking at the hoodie), without a 4K screen i'm not sure if people would notice. But in motion it may be even harder, or easier, I have no idea? Is there a way to see this shit in action? @Clukos can you deliver some gifs on that beastly system of yours?

 

[Clukos]

agreed, but in motion? Is there a way to see this shit in action? @Clukos can you deliver some gifs on that beastly system of yours?

Gifs won't show anything, neither will compressed youtube footage. You can already see the usual CBR artifacts in the second image on the woman moving in the left corner. Keep in mind, WD2 doesn't do a good job clearing out these artifacts like Horizon Zero Dawn does, so a lot is left up to the implementation and the AA used.

 

[iroboto]

Gifs won't show anything, neither will compressed youtube footage. You can already see the usual CBR artifacts in the second image on the woman moving in the left corner. Keep in mind, WD2 doesn't do a good job clearing out these artifacts like Horizon Zero Dawn does, so a lot is left up to the implementation and the AA used.

true.

okay this is the best I can identify here, not sure if it's a big difference for a 4K screen, the idea I have to zoom up like this is moronic, makes me feel dumb like I'm nit picking. The CBR is very good.
Top img is 4K Native, below CBR. Observe the hood itself on the hoodie. That's the only place where texture rendering appears different.

4K CBR.