RSX: Vertex input limited? *FKATCT

Time for the friendly mod advise:

Seriously guys, don't track down somebody else. Knowing their place of residence doesn't in/decrease their credibility. An imposter is more likely to be uncovered by his false information than his personal details. Moreover, if the guys really working in the industry, he could get in all sorts of troubles.
We as mods are trying to protect everyone's privacy. You don't want anyone to hunt you down, either - And I certainly want anyone to go through my web browser's history :devilish:. To sum it all up, it's a big no-no. Although it's hardly necessary, I'll add it to forum FAQ for future reference later on.
 
I feel strange about the fact that this dev says that xenon is easy to code for.
Most of the power of the xenon comes from its three simd unit.
I guess it take time to make the most out of these unit the same way is tought on a spe (except some memory management).
I don't question the cell has more muscle, my question is more like this :
Devs who want to use the power of cell have to code for the spe properly.
good habits=>> good results
But xenon seems more forgivable (i know it's not OoO, lake good speculative execution, etc... so it's not so forgivable) ot least let dev use more traditional coding.
There is very few post about xenon here, but it seems not to be so closed of the ppe and there's few thread about it:
vmx128 units can prove to be powerfull 128 registers same speed as spe, some hardwired functions.
Fp unit and vmx unit are decoupled they have their own "instruction queue" (can find the correct word) and can issue two instructions per cycle so at some point a xenon core can be 4 issues two from integer&branch units two from fp&vmx units.
I remember reading the vmx128 have some optimizations to keep execution units busy (poor OoO? technical insight or proper links welcome :) ).
So to me it seems that for to make the most out of the xenon needs some heavy work too.
do you think it could turn in bad habits==>no so good results situation as far as xenon programming is concerned?
And any insight on the the xenon design is welcome ;) (ars technica article is bad documented... and there few interesting articles on the web :( )
 
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The fact Xenos has 3 identical cores lends itself to easier programming, relatively speaking.
 
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The think the fact Xenos has 3 identical cores lends itself to easier programming, relatively speaking.
I think the fact the xenon has a share L 2 help too.
But like this dev state the memory controler is share too so there can some concurrencies between the differents cores :(
So it the same question if dev use the xenon as a multi core X86 state of the art core the xenon will perform really poorly. The same bad habits in programming yeld in bad results performance wize.
Devs can manually manage the L2 cache and split it in regard to memory usage of the different cores.
Xenon's code has to be handtuned for good results, the fact the design allow some poor coding is not a good news.

Anyway any links or insight on xenon design are welcome the few threads here or around the web turn too quickly in vs thread to be interesting and the fact xenon is not supposed to be used outside the 360 doesn't help.

Edit Sorry if it's slightly HT but I would like to open a thread about xenon but I don't have the knowledge to keep it alive.. I have a lot of questions, exemple: insomniac devs run collisions system on 2 spe and manage to keep everything smooth with 40 characters and a lot of projectiles. 2 spe equal the computational power of two altivec128 untis and use 512Kb of LS half of the xenon L2 cache. How this could be mapped on the xenon?
why the same devs use two spe merory space (need of 512kb of LS)? computational power? how this is feasible on xenon? the same is feasible on a good X86 (with less computationaal power) I guess so I need technical and somewhat slightly trivial insights.
(sorry I know I lake a lot of knowledge but I 'm sure some here can put together a not so trivial answer that me and a lot of others can understand :) )
I know it looks like vs question but it's really interesting questions and a good way to enlight designs strenght and weakness.
 
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Heh, a few of those quoted responses in the first post were in response to my post over there (fronn).

What I responded to didn't really sound like something a dev would say and contained a lot of fishy information, so I pushed it. If I had seen his posts in the "Ps3 hits 1 million mark" thread, I probably wouldn't have pushed it like I did (since those posts were a lot more level-headed). After his response to me, it seems like he definitely is a developer though... It wouldn't surprise me if he came from the PC world instead of the PS2 world though. I'm still in doubt about his 360 GPU always being superior claim (but if hes porting from 360, then it may not be so surprising). Would be interesting to see how a console with Cell and Xenos could have turned out though!

Someone should drag him over here.
 
The so called dev's words said:
Switch your PS3 game from FP16 to an 8/8/8/8 int format and see your framerate jump. Of course, you'll have to forgo HDR on your shipping title, but you can then do msaa. Or, go back to FP16 since HDR looks so cool, but oh ya, you then have to turn off msaa

He's a fool and has not got a clue, saying that because HDR is'nt calculated as an FP format its not HDR? :LOL:
 
I'm with Acert; do we judge the message or the messenger around here? Whether or not this poster is in the industry... and he certainly seems to be IMO... I think his points should just be deconstucted as any other posters points would be.

There seems to be this strange mythos on the Internet that if a 'developer' says something, it somehow takes on the force of natural law. But we have many a dev here, do we not? And they disagree on points all the time.
Yeah, a lot of his points are more or less true, but the fatalism with which he mentions them seem to be based on the assumption that you can't do anything about it. I don't know if those assumptions are valid for his company's art pipeline, but most all of them can be circumvented in various ways. His concern over vertex attributes are very avoidable in various ways (many of which trade shader cycles for data, but since the shader instructions often don't cost you as much, it's often worth it). Where I am, our PS3 development is really not far enough along to say anything one way or another, but there are a lot of circumventions around data-moving limits which we do anyway and are a win on both platforms.

The guy who dominates that other thread (the CPU comparison thread) is clearly an armchair geek who thinks he knows a thing or two, but is really little more than a novice who's visited a few tech sites.

He's a fool and has not got a clue, saying that because HDR is'nt calculated as an FP format its not HDR?
Ummm... I think the point was more about native formats and what the hardware supports, and indeed 8:8:8:8 integer RGBA is not inherently HDR. Though I'm not sure why he's so hot on FP8... I would at least assume he meant FP10.
 
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He's a fool and has not got a clue, saying that because HDR is'nt calculated as an FP format its not HDR? :LOL:

That isn't what he is saying. What he said, in context, was

1. Because it was a port, going with a new HDR technique (like a colorspace format) wouldn't work due to needing to be redesigned.

2. So they have to choose: FP16 based HDR effects which are slower from INT8, FP10, Colorspace (e.g. NOA32), and so forth. We know this, G70 with HDR enabled in games that use FP16 blending and filtering do take a performance hit. So there is a drop in framerate + they cannot use MSAA. Or they can use INT8, gain some framerate back (which seemed to be important to them due to some issues they had porting their Xenos VS code to RSX), and use MSAA for a cleaner image. So for their deadline and game design it was either FP16 and workout the framerate issues or INT8 with MSAA and alleviating some of their framerate issues.

Now, WHY they are having some of these issues is another story. Some of this is feature based. They are most likely using FP10 on the 360 and RSX just doesn't have a similar format. They may also have used some other features if the Xbox 360 was the lead SKU (probably not stuff like tesselation, streamout, heavy vertex texturing) but it wouldn't surprise me if they were using 3Dc for example for normals. There is always the possibility they are using fairly branchy pixel shaders or may have some heavy vertex work that may not port over well in a limited 2-4 month window; and he already noted the issues they had with the split memory pool.

So if they have a game design where they really wanted MSAA and HDR using a FP format, have tailored their assets for specific features that run a little better on Xenos, and didn't give much though to UMA vs. NUMA, and didn't leave time to resolve these issues during co-development (e.g. NOA32 for HDR, more prortable assets with alternate designs that accent RSX strengths, designed their engine to work equally well with a NUMA design and taking account for texturing from XDR, and so forth), then getting asked to solve ALL these problems during crunch to get performance up to snuff could be very frustrating.

It is no different than the first dev we hear frustrated and dissappointed that his sweet SPE algorhythm spanning 4 SPEs runs at like 20% on 2 Xenon cores, or a game using the PS3 as the lead platform with no/little thought to the 360, and then you try to port all your graphics assets, that may even be using some SPE libraries, and so forth.

One could conjure up many, many scenarios where one of the consoles as a lead platform does a port and where the lead consoles strength was also the design bottleneck, and how that could be a problem on the other console. And yet they are very similar in some ways. The easy solution is to cut/add features as necessary, cut down detail (i.e. cut texture reslution by 50%, so your 720x720 texture becomes 512x512, not a big loss; similarly your 200x200 cloth mesh becomes 141x141), and so forth. This is one of the issues of being 2nd to market: everyone is already full steam ahead building stuff for the other guy, but as development matures developers will do a better job tailoring dev cycles to account for these issues.

And even if joker is a joke, we can see that many Xbox to PS ports this fall did have some issues, especially with getting framerates up. Next fall? It could be reversed.
 
liolio said:
There is very few post about xenon here, but it seems not to be so closed of the ppe and there's few thread about it:
vmx128 units can prove to be powerfull 128 registers same speed as spe, some hardwired functions.

Not quite the same speed as SPEs. SPE's have much lower load latency.

liolio said:
p unit and vmx unit are decoupled they have their own "instruction queue" (can find the correct word) and can issue two instructions per cycle so at some point a xenon core can be 4 issues two from integer&branch units two from fp&vmx units.

AltiVec/VMX implementations have always been decoupled. The instruction queues you're referring to are really more like reservation stations. The PPE core is still basically still a dual issue processor, so you're only going to be issuing 2 instructions per clock max.
 
Perhaps I'm being silly, but they mention HLSL being compiled to both architectures. Surely this is the simplest give-away, HLSL is for DirectX (360) not OpenGL (PS3)! This is continuously mentioned (compile and run) throughout the posts. It's just another Xbot
 
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Anyway... well I'm an AVS member myself but I've been too emotionally involved there of late to respond in that thread right now; I'm trying to scale back and detach myself from the BD/HD DVD war presently underway there, which is so much more over the top than even any gaming forum you've ever seen.

I have a hard time stomaching that place because of the really bizarre HD-DVD love-in they have going on over there... Trying to discuss fundamental technical issues like bitrate and capacity is an exercise in masochism. :)

(Sorry for being OT. Just had to vent a bit.)
 
I have a hard time stomaching that place because of the really bizarre HD-DVD love-in they have going on over there... Trying to discuss fundamental technical issues like bitrate and capacity is an exercise in masochism. :)

(Sorry for being OT. Just had to vent a bit.)


Blu Ray supporter eh?
 
Perhaps I'm being silly, but they mention HLSL being compiled to both architectures. Surely this is the simplest give-away, HLSL is for DirectX (360) not OpenGL (PS3)! This is continuously mentioned (compile and run) throughout the posts. It's just another Xbot

While there is PSGL, the high level shading language is NV's CG 1.5. Maybe a PS3 developer could clarify on the different approaches, but reading this PPT series from Cedric Perthuis makes mention of the CG version used for the PS3 which says, "CG... PS3 specific compiler... mostly compatible with other languages like HLSL". Without knowing the tools and middleware they are using it is hard to say, but it is likely they are using HLSL on the 360 and when they ported the title they took whatever steps necessary to move their shader code to CG. But I am not familiar with this process or the tools.
 
Perhaps I'm being silly, but they mention HLSL being compiled to both architectures. Surely this is the simplest give-away, HLSL is for DirectX (360) not OpenGL (PS3)! This is continuously mentioned (compile and run) throughout the posts. It's just another Xbot

The PS3 has CG, which is essentially identical to D3D's HLSL.
 
... In RSX's case you have no choice but to use FP16 (16/16/16/16), compared to FP8 on xenon. So you are forced to move ...

Is this correct?
AFAIK xenon does support FP16, but FP8?

And doesn't xenos only go down to FP10?

The quote would imply xenon is a typo, meant to be xenos?

Or is it too late and am I confused..?


[edit]
I am confused.. It is too late :p I didn't see the second page and Monkeys responce
 
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