RSX pixel shaders vs Xenos pixel shaders

[ERP]

It responses like this I don't understand and there have been a number of them lately on the forum. If it's not too much trouble please explain WHY!!!!

After all this is a discussion forum, and these type of comments do not invite discussion.

It would be my guess you don't understand the issue enough to discuss things?

It my understanding there is a lot of truth to what Nemo80 is saying, because I remember one of the problems with the PowerVR rendering method, that with high geometry counts spanning tiles, caused huge display lists to be created, which not only effected rendering speed but took up a lot more memory.

There was nothing in the original post to discuss with the exception that tiling introduces some geometry overhead the rest of it was complete f*nboy Drivel. He did nothing to argue his point he just made stuff up with no real understanding of the situaution, how is that discussion? He just happened to be the last one of many posts on both sides in the same vain that annoyed me enough to respond.

There have been many promising threads recently that have been completly derailed on this forum. Because a post contains technical sounding words doesn't make it technically sound.

The quality of posts over the past few weeks has been dropping through the floor again, hopefully once E3 is overwith things willl calm down.

 

[NRP]

It responses like this I don't understand and there have been a number of them lately on the forum. If it's not too much trouble please explain WHY!!!!

After all this is a discussion forum, and these type of comments do not invite discussion.

It would be my guess you don't understand the issue enough to discuss things?

It my understanding there is a lot of truth to what Nemo80 is saying, because I remember one of the problems with the PowerVR rendering method, that with high geometry counts spanning tiles, caused huge display lists to be created, which not only effected rendering speed but took up a lot more memory.

It's very simple:
ERP = developer who works with 360 hardware
Nemo80 = random forum troll

Seriously Edge, you're an idiot if you think ERP doesn't understand the issues. Read some of his friggin' posts!

 

[Farid]

This is an Off Topic Post: No Need to Report it to the Moderators, though

There have been many promising threads recently that have been completly derailed on this forum. Because a post contains technical sounding words doesn't make it technically sound.

The quality of posts over the past few weeks has been dropping through the floor again, hopefully once E3 is overwith things willl calm down.

It will. One way or another, but it sure will.

But as you said, not only E3 is coming, but there's also the release of the new consoles. And since the fanpersons cannot accept anything but the best (except when it comes to reasoning, factual datas and reality), they need to argue about the superiority of their electronic toys purchases, even if they do not have a comprehensive knowledge of the subject, again and again.

The Beyond3D forums are a place where the knowledge about 3D rendering techniques is shared, therefore people seeking anything else but this particular knowledge won't be the very welcome if they keep on intruding every threads just to post random useless comments just to support their corporations overlords.

 

[Acert93]

It responses like this I don't understand and there have been a number of them lately on the forum. If it's not too much trouble please explain WHY!!!!

After all this is a discussion forum, and these type of comments do not invite discussion.

Actually ERP (a cross platform developer) and Mintmaster (used to work in the industry) have spent a bit of time answering a number of questions lately about Xenos. Use the search feature, or click on their names and look at recent posts, or just browse the front page of the "Console Technology" forum. You cannot fault them for people ignoring what they have said and not wanting to accept what they say.

As it is a number of important insights have gotten ignored because they don't give with people's preconcieved notions. Be it CELL or Xenos people want to believe what they want to believe.

The fact is there have been developers who have spoken out on both sides. It is funny how people react. FP16 blending filtering was not capable on RSX with MSAA yet NT figured out a solution for HDR that did not require such and did work with MSAA. Sony fans jumped with joy, others did not. This should be an example of developer accomplishment, instead it turns into "ATI wasted silicon" or "This is just a hack work around" or whatever. Other devs have spoken out how a certain chip is better for their game development (e.g. id, CryTeek, Starbreeze, etc) and people want to ignore it. Heck, I see you have a SN quote in your sig... and they are owned by Sony. People have a tendancy to interepret things through a comfort zone of what they prefer. Some people, the red squares, take it too far and typically destroy threads.

It would be my guess you don't understand the issue enough to discuss things?

You have a LOT of nerve to come to these forums and tell a developer who has contributed time and time again to the forums and proven to be a source of quality information an idiot and incapable of contributing to this thread.

It my understanding there is a lot of truth to what Nemo80 is saying

And that is the problem. Nemo80 has no proof of what he is saying.

In a nutshell, if you want quality insights ask real questions (not loaded ones driving at your own conclusion) and contribute fair and honest input that drives the discussion forward instead.

I swear, I think MS fans intentionally misunderstand CELL and Sony fans Xenos. Seeing the same errors (like SPEs cannot do integer) is just annoying. Xenos is a constant victim of such, primarily because it did not finally tape out until July 2005 and is very divergent from current GPUs. Just looking at how the X1900's ALUs are underutilized (or how SM3.0 has been barely touched by devs) should give a small hint of whats going on. Of course we already are hearing how CELL will take years to maximize. There is just no winning with some of you MS/Sony fans. I am surpised ANY developers hang around here ... and the way you talked to ERP is plain annoying. nAo, Faf, DeanoC, ERP, MrWibble, Panjav, etc... deserve a LOT more respect than they often get from some of you. Expecting them to engage in the fanboi drivel on these forums is ludicrous.

Of course I am old enough to remember how poor the first wave of software was for the Sega Saturn and the PS2. People tend to forget that developers need time to catch up and generation transitions can suck. I have seen this stuff before and is why I stopped posting before the 360 launched. Maybe after the PS3 comes out and things settle down all the wannabe tech trolls can leave and we can get back to real discussion.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well Xenos "sounds" good. To good to be true. Even EDRAM sounds good, helpful.

But when you use it in real life it has one major disadvantage, that totally messes up all advantages, and that is the raised geometry level when tiling is used, which is necessary on heavy HDR / AA usage. This is fact.

And now a theory on USA: Also sounds very good, but i think one reason why almost ALL 360 games run on poor framerate with lots of framedrops is because of the USA. Yes, it can loadbalance itself, but on the other hand it takes away control from the dev over what is happening on screen and the exact predictability of wha resources are available at a certain time - and workloads might easily run out of borders...

So AA / Tiling works nice on low poly games (Beat em ups ...) but sucks ass when high poly counts are used, because geometry levels cannot be matched.

You should probably wait for real PS3 games and then your brain might CLICK and realise these 2 systems are very very close in performance. And you might realize the PS3 game have all the same problems *shock* *surprise* *denial*

I don't understand why Nemo80 even has an account, he has never contributed a single constructive post.

 

[one]

Of course I am old enough to remember how poor the first wave of software was for the Sega Saturn and the PS2. People tend to forget that developers need time to catch up and generation transitions can suck.

With all the XNA mantra and the early SDK release I can understand people expect otherwise for Microsoft...

 

[Edge]

And that is the problem. Nemo80 has no proof of what he is saying.

Is he not repeating what some Japanese developer said recently? Or has that been throughly debunked?

Excuse me for not knowing ERP's exalted status here. I never knew his position. I don't have time to read every posts on this forum, because of work issues. Anyway, I don't see why I have to know all his past posts, or know his position. You can't question a person's post unless you understand their entire history here? I made a valid criticism, and I stand by it. If he is so knowledgeable then please provide a reasonable response if you will. If you don't have time or patience, then maybe a link to a past answer. I find it hard to search so many past threads and posts in the limited I have to read here. Thanks.

 

[Acert93]

With all the XNA mantra and the early SDK release I can understand people expect otherwise for Microsoft...

By this reasoning every MS fan should troll every thread because of the CELL matra (pushed by Sony, PS3 developers, and Sony fans) when certain games fall short? And that is not even the issue. The questions being raised have been answered by developers and people in the industry and said posters are choosing to ignore it.

Take your points for example: XNA is not released. Shifty started a thread nearly a year ago about such. Alpha kits were running on SM2.0 / G5 hardware. Xenos did not tape out until July and most developers did not get it (and working tiling) until August.

It is understandible why there was confusion 8 months ago, but this same hostility and playing off these same points when all this has been made well known for many months is silly. I find it kind of ironic a post like Nemos that wants to focus on framerate issues of certain games when the platform also has a number of visually pleasing titles with stable framerates. Ironically it is always assumed that it is the GPU that is at issue (and not the CPU and threading). Basically with no evidence people assume what they wish.

I think a lot of posters miss the big picture. Beyond the gen transition, lets look at a title like GRAW or PGR3. They look good, but could have been even better. But why? They are competing against themselves with the year head start. Sales numbers indicate that getting the titles out now instead of refining them was a good move (for the publishers at least). As consumers we have certain expectations of "next gen" but it does not happen over night.

You can see something like VF5 on a 6800. (A side note: I have played GRAW on a 6800 and it looks like sh!t compared to the 360.) The 6800 is by all means inferior to RSX/Xenos but look at what focused development can produce. Yet by how many post here you would think Untold Legends (PS3) and the Outfit (360) are some measuring stick of the platform and its "problems". To return to your point:

With all the XNA mantra and the early SDK release I can understand people expect otherwise for Microsoft...

If posters really want to dwell on ignorance they can. And when the PS3 comes out and a number of games fail to impress (which is sure to happen) we will begin hearing:

- PS3 is too hard to dev for
- Only the big developers can succeed on the PS3
- CELL is not as powerful as many think
- RSX sucks

And their excuse? Expections.

Of course it wont be fair. It ignores market factors (I am sure most developers will tell you they always want more time and money on a title) and puts things under a microscope when there is a bigger picture. We are less than a year into "next gen" and it takes 24+ months to make a title from the ground up...

But hey, if your are comfortable with people indicting MS over XNA (which oddly MS has gotten a lot of PC titles) and dev kits, it should be fair game the other way as well. But I hardly believe that is the case.

As for me, I expect the big companies to launch with some great PS3 games. I think Sony made a great move by giving developers NV hardware with similar features (SM3.0) and performance (SLI) and getting them CELL early. The devs lucky enough to have the early kits will have had ~18 months before launch with the hardware.

And that said, I expect what DeanoC to be true: Early games will be PPE heavy, and it wont be until the END of the generation until SPEs are the major workhorses.

The same leeway I am giving Sony I give MS. But it seems most posters want to interpret Sony/MS through their fans instead of the market... which invites idiots who call developers idiots who don't understand things. What a great place this is come E3 times... although it has been like this since last E3!

 

[TurnDragoZeroV2G]

Nice posts Acert.

I also sincerely apologize if any of my posts happened to be amongst that **** you mentioned ERP.

 

[mckmas8808]

Great post Acert93. Now can you check your mailbox.

 

[one]

If posters really want to dwell on ignorance they can. And when the PS3 comes out and a number of games fail to impress (which is sure to happen) we will begin hearing:

- PS3 is too hard to dev for
- Only the big developers can succeed on the PS3
- CELL is not as powerful as many think
- RSX sucks

And their excuse? Expections.

Of course it wont be fair. It ignores market factors (I am sure most developers will tell you they always want more time and money on a title) and puts things under a microscope when there is a bigger picture. We are less than a year into "next gen" and it takes 24+ months to make a title from the ground up...

But hey, if your are comfortable with people indicting MS over XNA (which oddly MS has gotten a lot of PC titles) and dev kits, it should be fair game the other way as well. But I hardly believe that is the case.

I understand your point too, but I don't blame posters who dwell on ignorance. To be fair, those who helped to create the bloated expectation should be blamed. If XNA is not sufficient, the general-purpose CPU cores. Unified Shader is more efficient, more flexible, and does load-balancing automatically in a dev-friendly way. If you didn't help this trend, then there's nothing to be worried about.

 

[Lazy8s]

The PowerVR example for needing extra memory space for display lists is countered by its memory space savings from not necessarily needing: an external Z-buffer, a high-precision framebuffer for comparable color quality, a super-sized backbuffer for FSAA via supersampling, external MRTs, or even multiple buffering of framebuffers at all in some cases. Also, the lower bandwidth requirements of a TBDR can make cheaper memory types useable in some cases and can therefore afford more memory space in the first place.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It responses like this I don't understand and there have been a number of them lately on the forum. If it's not too much trouble please explain WHY!!!!

I think there's a fair threshold between correcting someone who's mistaken and ignoring them as a person who really doesn't know what they're talking about. Nemo80 wasn't asking questions about 'is it like this? And I right in my understanding?' but was writing as fact, facts that are so up the Swanny they've come out the other side and are beached in the Sands of Ignorance. It's obviously the post of someone who believes in Xenos inferiority and sees the world according to those beliefs, spreading their own Gospel, rather than trying to discuss and debate (which would be pretty pointless now as the points have been addressed I believe). If you know what you're talking about, it's great to post that info on this tech forum. If you don't know, or are unsure, it's great to post on this forum and learn and encourage those that do know to talk (perhaps by using Thumbscrews or Chinese Water Torture too). If you dont know what you're talking about but want to pretend or believe you do, you don't belong here.

 

[Nemo80]

You should probably wait for real PS3 games and then your brain might CLICK and realise these 2 systems are very very close in performance. And you might realize the PS3 game have all the same problems *shock* *surprise* *denial*

I don't understand why Nemo80 even has an account, he has never contributed a single constructive post.

Actually, PS3 has no EDRAM which is much to small to hold a full framebuffer and requires mutlitple tiles, or did i miss something?

To the other statement: I think i made it clear by using the word "THEORY" that this is not fact, but if you want to jump around in circles because of that instead of bringing some arguments why it's not true, feel free to do that. Thank you.

 

[!eVo!-X Ant UK]

RSX : 136x550= 74.8 billion shader ops per second.

Xenos : 96x500= 48 billion shader ops per second.

Xenos count of 48 billion is assuming ALL its 48 pipe's are processing a pixel, but i dont ever seeing that happen.

Should this be enough to end the argument about the shader power both chips have, or is there another factor?

 

[nAo]

RSX : 136x550= 74.8 billion shader ops per second.

Xenos : 96x500= 48 billion shader ops per second

meaningless numbers

Xenos count of 48 billion is assuming ALL its 48 pipe's are processing a pixel, but i dont ever seeing that happen.

It will happen all the times Xenos is doing some full screen post processing effect.

Should this be enough to end the argument about the shader power both chips have, or is there another factor?

No, it's not enough and there's no way you can put an end to this kind of arguments.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

It responses like this I don't understand and there have been a number of them lately on the forum. If it's not too much trouble please explain WHY!!!!

The problem with your kind of user is that there's been countless explanations already, so the most probable reason you don't understand is that you don't want to understand. If you're biased towards a particular console, it's even harder to combat your false ideas and beliefs. Devs like ERP, nAo and DeanoC are doing their best to give insights to the hardwre they're working with and if you take your time you can gather a lot of knowledge here. But you choose to ignore what doesn't fit your beliefs, and even keep spreading these beliefs everywhere, derailing the very discussions that could help you understand... so don't be surprised when a dev decides that he just won't bother.

 

[EndR]

Yeah..
I must give lots of cred to the "usual suspects" here.. nAo, Faf, ERP, Deano etc. Your stuff is always interesting to read..

 

[ROG27]

We're at the point of who gives a flying f*&$, anyway. So, I don't see the point in discussing RSX vs. Xenos. They are comprable in what they can do and their performance, yet they are unique (meaning they both have some tricks up their metaphorical sleeves). The more important things are the following: PS3 is a slightly CPU-centric machine, while X360 is a slightly GPU-centric console; it seems PS3 might have a bit more raw power, while in X360, the power that is available is easier to tap and manage. Both machines will be great and have comprable features, prices, etc.

The only standout thing that will certainly differentiate them is their first/second party IPs and 3rd Party (timed?) exclusives.

~FIN~

 

[inefficient]

We're at the point of who gives a flying f*&$, anyway. So, I don't see the point in discussing RSX vs. Xenos. They are comprable in what they can do and their performance, yet they are unique (meaning they both have some tricks up their metaphorical sleeves). The more important things are the following: PS3 is a slightly CPU-centric machine, while X360 is a slightly GPU-centric console; it seems PS3 might have a bit more raw power, while in X360, the power that is available is easier to tap and manage. Both machines will be great and have comprable features, prices, etc.

The only standout thing that will certainly differentiate them is their first/second party IPs and 3rd Party (timed?) exclusives.

~FIN~

The idea that both machines will be very close in performance is a fairly sound expectation when taking into account what is currently known/expected.

But, I guess the point that causes a lot of people to second guess this conclusion is the fact that the PS3 will ship a full year after the xbox360.

For many it is just a little too hard to believe that MS have delievered a machine of smilar power to the PS3 a full year before Sony. Or in the case of this thread, perhaps they find it a little unbelieveable that the silicon nvidia is providing Sony Q4 2006 will be only roughly par with what ATI provided MS Q4 2005.

I guess the hidden objective of this thread and many others like it is to answer how did Microsoft manage such a coupe! What were the tradeoffs. And is there really something we are not missing?