RSX and 1080p games.

[RobertR1]

The other thread got locked because it was implying a comparison to Xenos (i assume) so we'll only discuss the RSX in here.

Acert made some very good replies in the other thread so going off that, let's get started. The pixel real estate of true 1080p is the same as 1600x1200. The RSX is supposedly less powerful than a 7900GTX and has a 128bit bus instead of 256 and shares the RAM with the rest of the OS. Please feel free to correct me as needed. I'm just learning but trying to get some questions answered that have been bothering me for some time now.

Now lets take a look at arguably the hottest PC game right now, Oblivion. On even the most top end PC, a 7900GTX is not enough to run this game at 1600x1200, 4XMSAA, HDR (lets assume it can for our comparison sake), a decent AF level and maintain 60FPS at all times.

Now with the RSX being noticably lower spec'd than the 7900GTX, how would such a game be able to run in True 1080p at a constant 60 with all the bells and whistles? As games become more complex and require even more GPU power, you'd think you're getting further and further away from this since you simply will not have the raw power to accomplish this. Am I right?

Stealing a bit for Acert, personally, I'd prefer 720P games that are well done vs 1080p games that might be short on graphicsl content and compleity just to achieve this goal. Am I too off in thinking that true 1080P will likely not happen in this generation but would be a fair goal for the PS4? I'm sure a handful of games will manage but the question remains, would these devs be better off using 720p and using the available power to give us an even better IQ?

 

[Acert93]

Oblivion probably only needs to aim for 30fps because it is an action RPG, and even then being completely solid may not be required. Another point would be that a lot of games may use non-FP16 blending and filtering methods for HDR effects due to the penalty and inability to use MSAA; on the flip side some don't believe AA is necessary at such high resolutions (I disagree...) and as such if FP16 is a lower penalty than AA thre could be that tradeoff. Finally, Bethesda is known for great gameplay, not necessarily the most effecient game engines. The game also does not appear to use dynamic branching in pixel shaders (i.e. no SM3.0... which makes me wonder: does the game use geometry instancing? If not that could help in some areas). A lot of uknowns and variables. That said, based on FiringSquad's review of Oblivion and high end card:

* All 8xAF and 1600x1200
* (1) is 7900GTX, (2) is 7900GT, (3) is 7800GTX 256MB

Mountains w/ HDR (1) 42.4 (2) 32.4 (3) 31.7
Mountains w/ AA (1) 41 (2) 31.1 (3) 30.6
Foliage w/ HDR (1) 20.3 (2) 14.1 (3) 14.1
Foliage w/ AA (1) 21.8 (2) 14.8 (3) 14.5
Indoors w/ HDR (1) 80.9 (2) 70.1 (3) 67.3
Indoors w/ AA (1) 85.2 (2) 71.6 (3) 68.1

Foliage is a dog with AA or HDR-FP16, the Mountain areas appear playable (at least by console standards), and indoors are very fast.

I wish I could have found a 7800GTX 512MB for Oblivion, but alas I could not. I did find some for other games though. On newer games the performance hit can be pretty staggering at 1600x1200. e.g. FEAR is 35fps with AA/AF and CoD2 33.5fps with AA/AF. Yet if you turn off the AA/AF at 1600x1200, the framerate shoots up to 67fps.

A lot of this boils down to the game engine design and the tradeoffs the developers are willing to make. NT wanted HDR effects and AA. So they implimented an alternative method of getting HDR and seem to be targetting 720p. Would they have been able to do 1080p without AA (or 1080p with AA)? Only they know and it depends on where the bottleneck in their design is. If they are shader limited, increasing the resolution 2x would have a significant impact.

I cannot seem to find the old thread with the NV slide, but it would be worth finding and the subsequent discussion.

Devs have an advantage of a closed box with the PS3. But I believe that progressive (and aggressive) game designs with better graphics will balance that out. The question will be answered on a case by case basis, but graphics do impact the consumer. Few HDTVs can display 1080p, and a lot of consumers don't mind 30fps in most genres. The question is what is the better tradeoffs. If they are going to be shader limited, I would personally prefer a more robust looking game at 720p than 1080p. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Deepak]

I am no expert but isn't it unfair to compare PC games with console games.

 

[RobertR1]

It does that make sense that they might opt to drop out AA at such a high res since a lot of the userbase on consoles is not that sensitive to AA but seeing their TV saying "1080P" will give them a good feeling. While oblivion may not be the best coded engine, it is a popular game and cross platform popular games will be quite critical to draw the userbase.

You're right. The closed loop system allow for a best case scenario since the Dev's do not have to compromise and find a balance that'll work for a wide range of hardware. It'll be very interesting to keep an eye on very well done 720p games vs. 1080p games.

Thanks yet again for your answers!

 

[Farid]

Redundant Discussion

There's already a lot of threads regarding BW needs and 1080p rendering with regards to RSX.

A quick search brought these recent threads:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30197
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20807
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20049

There's a lot more posts on the forum about this particular subject, actually.

Anyway, given that the discussion remains interesting and constructive, I guess there's no need for locking it, redundant or not.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think 1080P games will be rare, but done mainly by Sony's 1st/2nd party. Give the devs sometime to learn the system and I think we will see it done.

 

[ERP]

I think 1080P games will be rare, but done mainly by Sony's 1st/2nd party. Give the devs sometime to learn the system and I think we will see it done.

You're trding off 2x the work/pixel for 2x the Res, I don't see a lot of devs choosing that tradeoff no matter how long we give them.

 

[Pozer]

I think the ps3 will have decent amount of native 1080p games. However most of them will not have intensive graphic effects. It would be best suited for stuff like party games, puzzle games, JRPG's, a traditional style resident evil type game, poker games, fishing games, basically anything where a large polygon count interactive enviroment is not needed.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

1080p

I think the ps3 will have decent amount of native 1080p games. However most of them will not have intensive graphic effects. It would be best suited for stuff like party games, puzzle games, JRPG's, a traditional style resident evil type game, poker games, fishing games, basically anything where a large polygon count interactive enviroment is not needed.

Resistance has large polygon count and interactive environment and can be 1080P no problem. Actually, if game is 720P/60fps, then 1080P/30fps version can have same per pixel power for lighting and effect and also 2x polygons.

 

[one]

Digi-guys shows a realtime 1080p demo of Wardevil:Enigma.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=760333&postcount=21

 

[Inane_Dork]

1080p will be the custom user soundtrack of this generation. A handful of games will use it, and it won't really matter.

 

[mckmas8808]

1080p will be the custom user soundtrack of this generation. A handful of games will use it, and it won't really matter.

This I do believe too.

 

[RobertR1]

I suppose it's a good marketing tatic for this gen. Majority of the HD sets circulating are only 720p/1080i so the dev is better off concentrating on 720p and maximizing the graphics thus pleasing the entire userbase or limiting to themselves somewhat only to people who have 1080P sets. Just a handful of 1080P games will be enough for them to fall back and say "hey, we gave you 1080p games like we promised!" I think it's a smart move.

I still do have reservations about RSX having enough raw power for an action packed FPS games at 1080P/60, hdr, 4xMSAA and "next gen" graphics. I think we'll always continue to see such titles at 720p esp. if they include online play.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

1080p

I still do have reservations about RSX having enough raw power for an action packed FPS games at 1080P/60, hdr, 4xMSAA and "next gen" graphics. I think we'll always continue to see such titles at 720p esp. if they include online play.

I do not think super high action FPS with next-gen graphics like Resistance can be 1080P/60, probably only 30fps like Gears of War because 1080P/60 needs 2x pixel shader power as 720P/60 but 1080P/30 is same pixel count as 720P/60.

Online play is better to have 30fps because slow frame-rate will have less problems with network issue.

But 60fps is better for controls and feel. Maybe they will have 60fps control processing and 30fps graphics. We will have to wait to see. I think even they have not made this decision.

 

[cthellis42]

Resistance has large polygon count and interactive environment and can be 1080P no problem. Actually, if game is 720P/60fps, then 1080P/30fps version can have same per pixel power for lighting and effect and also 2x polygons.

You raise a good point. I'm not actually sure what would keep a developer from doing a little extra work and making the FPS-for-resolution trade-off. I know it's not usually done for consoles, but we're blending the borders a lot more these days, so I can see developers picking up on it to be able to have both the 1080P checkbox and also the faster, tighter gameplay for those who want it. While even some graphically intense games may be able to hit 1080P/60fps at quality as devs start to dig in, developers on the 360 will be doing the same, and I'm sure devs will want to retain graphical distinction. (And certainly not lose ground.)

A question to those in the know (or at least the "much more know than us" ) would be... just what might that entail? In the development process, is it not unduely harsh to be able to make the 1080P-->720P trade-off for a solid 30-->60fps exchange?

 

[LunchBox]

The comparison for the RSX and it's PC counterpart is valid. Although we should also acknowledge that for the RSX, It will run better because it will be optimised rather than the "generalized spec" game engine for the PC.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think there's some stylised grahics that would work on 1080p okay. Bought a friend DQ8 for his birthday and that looks sweet. You don't need buckets of pixel shading for that quality, so it'd work at 1080p and give a really crisp rendering. Something like LocoRoco would benefit from the improved resolution too. So 1080p @ 60fps (if you're going 30 or less FPS there's no difference from 1080i...) for major graphics fests, I don't imagine so, but games with simpler graphics, no reason why not. The supersampling on lower resolutions would be beneficial too.

And regards lack of 1080p sets, there are few owned as proper 1080p lines of sets haven't been available. They are this year with 1080p native resolutions, and as HDTV takes off and buyers pick up a new set, there's chance 1080p sets become the predominant sets sold. A 1080p set is 'future proofed' (a delightfuly meaningless phrase) - it's not going to be superceded any time soon. So 3 years down the line, the percentage of 1080p owners may well be greater than '720p only' owners.

I wonder if Sony demo kiosks will be 1080p? Expensive if so.

 

[zed]

I wonder if Sony demo kiosks will be 1080p? Expensive if so.

why (true theyre more expensive than 720p) but u can pick up 24inch (lcd + crt) computer monitors quite cheap

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Good point. Just found an Acer 1920x1200 monitor for about £600, 24", that'd do the job. And would be a really nice Bedroom set for PS3 too...

 

[SugarCoat]

The comparison for the RSX and it's PC counterpart is valid. Although we should also acknowledge that for the RSX, It will run better because it will be optimised rather than the "generalized spec" game engine for the PC.

Settings in the console game generally arent cranked up all the way either. For example; Xbox360 is using a lower IQ (not just resolution) then that of a high end PC with upped settings. This will prove true for all console to pc performance comparisons and therefore really shouldnt be done.