Rift, Vive, and Virtual Reality

[tongue_of_colicab]

Doesn't sound like you're talking about Japan at all.

Japanese people have very high salaries and have probably the widest age spectrum of active gamers in the world (definitely not just students).
They generally choose not to purchase powerful desktop PCs because they take up too much space, consume too much power, let out too much heat and noise, and most of the domestic games they prefer to play (JRPGs, visual novels and 2D fighters) either end up on consoles or can be played in a small and silent laptop.

The motives for PC gaming not being big in Japan are mostly cultural, not financial or demographic.




PSVR is the top seller in the US and Japan, the Vive is the top seller headset in China.

Oculus is the top seller nowhere, apparently.

Working and living in Japan I can tell you that salaries generally aren't great, even when hitting manager level etc. If you are single and don't mind living in a crappy'ish apartment yes then you'll haven "plenty" of money but want to live someplace with a bit of room or start a family and then it quickly starts to become difficult.

I do agree pc gaming isn't really Japan's cup of tea though not necessarily because of space (if you can fit a desk you can fit a pc), noise (Japanese love noise), heat (good for warming up your cardbox house in winter, so great in summer but then again summer is so hot a pc is not going to make a difference), or power consumption (power isn't that expensive and with the 80 electric heaters and aircons everybody has a pc is not going to make much of a difference). Then again, the local Yodobashi Camera (big electronics store) has a pc parts area that is larger than the whole console gaming area.

Aren't they private schools? In public schools it's written in the law about 5-day school week but it doesn't completely prohibit a Saturday class with some reservations (attending special classes, sports activities, etc.)

Saturdays are usually reserved for bukatsu (club activities). It kind of depends on the club you are in but especially sports clubs are pretty strict and you have to show up. Then there is juku (cram school) which a lot of kids attend after normal school hours.

Working and school hours are unnecessarily long. Mostly because the concept of efficiency does not exist in Japan and because there is no merit in it. If you finish 17:30 and go home half the office will be going like "why is this guy always going home early while we're here until 7, 8, 9pm?". It is all about perception. It doesn't matter what you are doing, or whether you are doing anything at all. What matters is, is that you are there, doing the same as everybody else and not causing problems (by not being in the office). This is for example why Japanese hardly every take time off. If you take time off for more than 1 or 2 days that will be perceived as causing problems for your co workers because you are not there and somebody else will have to take over.

I'll give a example of a company that we had some project at. There was a guy working in the export department and his boss was very happy with him, hard worker always leaving 9 or 10pm or whatever. You know what this guy was doing all day? Copying excel files cell by cell.

Another thing I hate is people "running" in the office. Japanese spend half their day "running" up and down the office. Now I say "running" because they aren't actually running, just making a running movement while walking at normal pace (and normal Japanese walking pace is pretty damn slow). Again this is all about being perceived as being hard working and busy. Any normal company would ask themselves why people need to run up and down all the time and move whatever the fuck they're getting closer.

So if you're ever in Japan or ever have to deal with Japanese; Keep in mind it is all about perception. Make it look like you are working hard, make it look you are willing to do everything for the other person and definitely adhere to whatever protocol is set. No "but", buy "yes".

 

[idsn6]

This would be cool if it turns out to work. But I'm not holding my breath until more details are out. Could be much hype for something niche inside niche inside niche

https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/19/this-startup-wants-to-build-vr-headsets-with-human-eye-resolution/

The technical description sounds similar to an idea I floated in this thread 4-odd years ago:

Foveated rendering could help with both factors, e.g. hypothetically concentrating graphics power in smaller high-PPI focal render targets overlaid onto the screen with pico laser projectors aimed at mirrors mounted in MEMS gimbals driven by IR eye tracking...but this scheme seems far less realistic for consumer hardware than simply hoping that phone manufacturers will continue their resolution race and GPUs will advance apace.

It looks like we got the worst of both worlds from my concluding prediction: the foveated rendering startup is indeed pricing itself out of the consumer space, but phone screen resolutions apparently plateaued a couple years back.

 

[DavidGraham]

Another good comparison between NV and AMD GPUs, this time on the Rift:
http://www.babeltechreviews.com/oculus-rift-vr-benching-amd-vs-nvidia-part-2/

 

[one]

Another thing I hate is people "running" in the office. Japanese spend half their day "running" up and down the office. Now I say "running" because they aren't actually running, just making a running movement while walking at normal pace (and normal Japanese walking pace is pretty damn slow). Again this is all about being perceived as being hard working and busy. Any normal company would ask themselves why people need to run up and down all the time and move whatever the fuck they're getting closer.

Wow I've never seen things like that, what kind of place is that? Though I work for a US company in Japan now, in my previous experiences in the IT/games industry in Japan I didn't witness that running behavior. You're right working hours (and holidays if you come from Europe) in Japan generally suck, but in the games industry I assume crunch hours exist even outside of Japan.

https://www.roadtovr.com/developer-shows-valves-knuckles-controllers-action/

Valve have not revealed their plans for a consumer version of the Knuckles controllers at this time

VR hardware for non-all-in-one high-end HMD are on a hiatus, we won't get anything good with the slow progress of GPU performance unless some form of foveated rendering or something like Varjo 20|20 becomes available.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Wow I've never seen things like that, what kind of place is that? Though I work for a US company in Japan now, in my previous experiences in the IT/games industry in Japan I didn't witness that running behavior. You're right working hours (and holidays if you come from Europe) in Japan generally suck, but in the games industry I assume crunch hours exist even outside of Japan.

You're living in Tokyo? I'll be going to Kawaski for business later this month.

I'm working in IT right now though the company I work for is relatively new to IT. On my floor people do do the silly running.

Actually holidays and working hours aren't so bad at my place. I get 20 paid days off (and as I'm not Japanese I actually use them ) and then there are all the national holidays. Yeah I won't have three straight weeks off during summer every year but it's not too bad.

Working hours aren't too crazy either. Usually I leave six'ish with the occasional long hours but nothing too bad.

The thing that bothers me most is the lack of effort they but in improving poor situations. Change is such a scary thing for most people in this country.

 

[one]

You're living in Tokyo? I'll be going to Kawaski for business later this month.

I'm working in IT right now though the company I work for is relatively new to IT. On my floor people do do the silly running.

Yes in Tokyo. I heard some urban legend that people in Kansai walk faster but not sure it's still true today.

Not making this conversation too off-topic, in Tokyo location-based VR arcades mostly based on HTC Vive are appearing including those from likes of Bandai Namco and SEGA
https://vrzone-pic.com/
https://tempo.sega.jp/tnsb/vr-area_akiba

Actually holidays and working hours aren't so bad at my place. I get 20 paid days off (and as I'm not Japanese I actually use them ) and then there are all the national holidays. Yeah I won't have three straight weeks off during summer every year but it's not too bad.

Great, I won't get as many PTO days unless I work at the same company for several years (it increases each year)

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Working and living in Japan I can tell you that salaries generally aren't great, even when hitting manager level etc. If you are single and don't mind living in a crappy'ish apartment yes then you'll haven "plenty" of money but want to live someplace with a bit of room or start a family and then it quickly starts to become difficult.

I do agree pc gaming isn't really Japan's cup of tea though not necessarily because of space (if you can fit a desk you can fit a pc), noise (Japanese love noise), heat (good for warming up your cardbox house in winter, so great in summer but then again summer is so hot a pc is not going to make a difference), or power consumption (power isn't that expensive and with the 80 electric heaters and aircons everybody has a pc is not going to make much of a difference). Then again, the local Yodobashi Camera (big electronics store) has a pc parts area that is larger than the whole console gaming area.



Saturdays are usually reserved for bukatsu (club activities). It kind of depends on the club you are in but especially sports clubs are pretty strict and you have to show up. Then there is juku (cram school) which a lot of kids attend after normal school hours.

Working and school hours are unnecessarily long. Mostly because the concept of efficiency does not exist in Japan and because there is no merit in it. If you finish 17:30 and go home half the office will be going like "why is this guy always going home early while we're here until 7, 8, 9pm?". It is all about perception. It doesn't matter what you are doing, or whether you are doing anything at all. What matters is, is that you are there, doing the same as everybody else and not causing problems (by not being in the office). This is for example why Japanese hardly every take time off. If you take time off for more than 1 or 2 days that will be perceived as causing problems for your co workers because you are not there and somebody else will have to take over.

I'll give a example of a company that we had some project at. There was a guy working in the export department and his boss was very happy with him, hard worker always leaving 9 or 10pm or whatever. You know what this guy was doing all day? Copying excel files cell by cell.

Another thing I hate is people "running" in the office. Japanese spend half their day "running" up and down the office. Now I say "running" because they aren't actually running, just making a running movement while walking at normal pace (and normal Japanese walking pace is pretty damn slow). Again this is all about being perceived as being hard working and busy. Any normal company would ask themselves why people need to run up and down all the time and move whatever the fuck they're getting closer.

So if you're ever in Japan or ever have to deal with Japanese; Keep in mind it is all about perception. Make it look like you are working hard, make it look you are willing to do everything for the other person and definitely adhere to whatever protocol is set. No "but", buy "yes".

It's interesting to see how different things are between the office workplace and more labor intensive workplaces.

At where I used to work 3 months out of the year, Everyone was expected to be there from 8 am in the morning until 6 pm at night (the buildings and gates are locked up at that time). The "good" workers as well as the limited office staff would show up at 7 am in the morning while everyone else is expected to arrive at least 15 minutes before work officially starts. That time is used for the workers and the boss/owner to talk about random things as well as to make note of anything significant happening that day. Everyday from Mon. through Sat. except for holidays.

At least there, you didn't see people just going through the motions. I'd guess mostly because the owner (my mother's husband) valued and rewarded hard work. And the workers there can't avoid working because he enjoys actually working there (his dream as a child was to own a metal recycling business, go figure). He's well past the age of retirement but enjoys his job so much that even though he planned to retire about 8 years ago, he's still just going to work everyday.

Part of that is because he likes to talk. With the workers, with other business owners, with clients, anyone. That's one thing that I like about the lower class workplaces in japan. There isn't so much racial or class divide as there is in more "polite" sections of Japanese society. For example, when they found out I liked Dragon Ball Z, everyday they'd act like they were grabbing my crotch (like Goku when he was young checking to see if someone was a guy or a girl). And since I like DBZ, they assumed I liked Naruto, so they'd also do the 2 handed butt poke motion. They do still respect the chain of command though. They pay respects to the boss because he's earned it, but otherwise they treat him as just another one of the guys.

It's a refreshing side of Japanese society. But the one thing they don't tolerate is lazy workers. You can't just act like you are working, you actually have to work to earn their respect. But once you do, they are refreshingly open and don't hold to the typical Japanese social structures you see in more "refined" Japanese society.

But yeah, I've heard a lot of stories similar to yours while in Japan from other Japanese (my mother's best friend's husband owns a relatively large tech company in Japan) and my aunt's husband owns a local printing company. That one is interesting as the workers are in the "lower" class, but the clientele is higher class.

Regards,
SB

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Yes in Tokyo. I heard some urban legend that people in Kansai walk faster but not sure it's still true today.

Great, I won't get as many PTO days unless I work at the same company for several years (it increases each year)

Yeah the same for me when I first started out. I think usually contract workers get something like 10 days as a base and then +1 day for every year they work at the company. However if you become seishain you are immediately level-upped to the max. number of days. At least at my company by I think that is probably the norm.

Kansai people are pretty slow in my opinion. Though I do like Kansai much better than Tokyo. I always feel Tokyo is full of zombies, everybody walking around in their poorly fitted black suits on endless street of poorly architectured concrete streets.

OTOH Osaka is one big craphole (by Japanese standards) but that is exactly what gives Osaka it's charm.

I lived in Kyoto for a while as well. Nice place apart from the micro climate that make the place even more humid in summer than Osaka. Though in recent years the place kinda lost its appeal to me. Damn Chinese tourists took the place over and I believe down town is now one big pachinko/phone store...

It's interesting to see how different things are between the office workplace and more labor intensive workplaces.

At where I used to work 3 months out of the year, Everyone was expected to be there from 8 am in the morning until 6 pm at night (the buildings and gates are locked up at that time). The "good" workers as well as the limited office staff would show up at 7 am in the morning while everyone else is expected to arrive at least 15 minutes before work officially starts. That time is used for the workers and the boss/owner to talk about random things as well as to make note of anything significant happening that day. Everyday from Mon. through Sat. except for holidays.

At least there, you didn't see people just going through the motions. I'd guess mostly because the owner (my mother's husband) valued and rewarded hard work. And the workers there can't avoid working because he enjoys actually working there (his dream as a child was to own a metal recycling business, go figure). He's well past the age of retirement but enjoys his job so much that even though he planned to retire about 8 years ago, he's still just going to work everyday.

Part of that is because he likes to talk. With the workers, with other business owners, with clients, anyone. That's one thing that I like about the lower class workplaces in japan. There isn't so much racial or class divide as there is in more "polite" sections of Japanese society. For example, when they found out I liked Dragon Ball Z, everyday they'd act like they were grabbing my crotch (like Goku when he was young checking to see if someone was a guy or a girl). And since I like DBZ, they assumed I liked Naruto, so they'd also do the 2 handed butt poke motion. They do still respect the chain of command though. They pay respects to the boss because he's earned it, but otherwise they treat him as just another one of the guys.

It's a refreshing side of Japanese society. But the one thing they don't tolerate is lazy workers. You can't just act like you are working, you actually have to work to earn their respect. But once you do, they are refreshingly open and don't hold to the typical Japanese social structures you see in more "refined" Japanese society.

But yeah, I've heard a lot of stories similar to yours while in Japan from other Japanese (my mother's best friend's husband owns a relatively large tech company in Japan) and my aunt's husband owns a local printing company. That one is interesting as the workers are in the "lower" class, but the clientele is higher class.

Regards,
SB

No doubt smaller companies will be like that, especially when dealing more with manual labor. I think that is pretty normal around the world. Smaller sized companies make communication easier and obviously there will be a less strict hierarchy as well. Not less respect, just easier to move between the ranks.

The company I work for has about a 1000 employees in our main Japanese office so yeah that means I'm basically stuck in the normal corporate culture.

Though I've been here for 5 years now so I don't care too much about who is above me anymore. If I see something go wrong I do try to say something about it (with the usual many many maybes and I think that trown in to avoid raising even the doubt that somebody might have made a mistake at some point as much as possible). But if I don't I'd go crazy. It's already a bit of a soul crushing experience from time to time so gotta try and stay sane

 

[one]

But the one thing they don't tolerate is lazy workers.

I think it depends, some places in the IT/games sector allow employees to come to the office in the afternoon.

One thing that is special about Japanese companies is it's really hard to fire or lay off employees due to the related law, there are so much laziness and inefficiency kept untouched. It's like a socialist state in a way.

Yeah the same for me when I first started out. I think usually contract workers get something like 10 days as a base and then +1 day for every year they work at the company. However if you become seishain you are immediately level-upped to the max. number of days. At least at my company by I think that is probably the norm.

Interesting, I thought contract workers don't get any increase in their holidays since their contracts may not be renewed and the increase is supposed to be a reward for a seishain who continues to stay. In my previous place I stayed there for over 6 years, the PTO started from 14 days (+ 3 days for summer vacation and 3 days before new year) and then went to 20 days max, but expire after 2 years. I landed my job at a US-based IT company last month and I'm going to get 14 days PTO after 3 months probation period, but the good thing about a non-Japanese workplace is I can take sick leave without decreasing PTO.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Their contracts may not be renewed but they could also work at the same company for 10 years straight without becoming seishain so I do think they usually get some kind of yearly increase. Most Japanese don't take time off anyway so its mostly a moot point

The laziness and inefficiency are mostly due to bad management imo. Like I said there is no reward for working hard and efficient. Most people need the overtime to make ends meet and how much time you spent at work is still very important for promotions rather than how much work you got done in the time you spent at work.

So you do 60 or 80 hours a week and you'll get cash and a good review. You spent 40 hours a week getting the same or more work done and you won't get extra pay and people will go "why is this guy going home already", "he is not working hard". Working hard in the eyes of a Japanese office slaving meaning staying at the office late regardless of whether you're actually getting any work done.

If you pay attention to it you'll also notice how a lot of Japanese suddenly get very busy during the end of the day.

Motivation is another issue. Managers do very little to motivate or get people involved.

 

[BRiT]

Any objections to splitting off the recent posts to a new thread into general discussion forum? Not sure what to title it, maybe Asian Work Culture ... ? Suggestions welcome.

 

[mrcorbo]

Rift + Touch on sale for $399 "for a limited time".

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/oculus-rift-and-touch-controller-bundle-is-really-/1100-6451547/

 

[tabs]

O_O Damn, that's cheap.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

It's the price it should have from the start. It's the price Palmer Luckey suggested to the fans right before CV1 went on sale, meaning it's probably a perfectly reasonable price with a reasonable profit.

Too bad that facebook had to wait until public statistics came out saying how far behind the Rift is compared to the competition, before acknowledging they can't really pull iphone-type margins.

But now it might be too late.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Next time I go to Japan I'm going to have to go check that place out. I believe I'd speculated earlier in this thread that an articulated platform that could simulate some of the effects of motion and the forces it imposes on the human body could alleviate motion sickness. While the motion from those devices appears to be limited, I'm curious as to whether it'd be enough to alleviate my motion sickness in VR.

Either way, I think that's the correct direction to go if VR is to become a thing. Unfortunately it's also a very expensive way to do things (some people already use articulated platforms for home driving and flying simulators).

Regards,
SB

 

[Davros]

Heres a game for y'all

It's just like being there

 

[cheapchips]

In the 90s spotty hills were the future.

 

[manux]

Varjo technologies raised some money. It's pretty interesting how their technology is described.

Varjo Technologies is creating hardware and software for VR/AR/XR computing devices, merging the real and digital worlds, by leveraging patented Bionic display technology that replicates how the human eye naturally works, creating a high-resolution image to the users gaze direction, further combined with video-see-through (VST) technology for enhanced AR/XR capabilities.
Codenamed “20|20” after perfect vision, Varjo’s prototype is based on technology created by a team of optical scientists, creatives and developers who formerly occupied top positions at Microsoft®, Nokia®, Intel®, Nvidia® and Rovio®.

http://www.finsmes.com/2017/09/varjo-technologies-raises-8-2-in-series-a-funding.html

 

[manux]

Really good stuff from oculus
199$ oculus go, standalone vr headset. Doesn't need phone, pc or cables. New panels and optics. Based on youtube video sounds like display quality is higher than rift. On sale early 2018.

On the whole, the experience was truly amazing. It was really as if I was using a Rift, but without being attached to a PC. It's clear that truly wireless VR is where Oculus is going -- while Go appears to be positioned as the entry-level version, Santa Cruz seems like the one you really want.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/10/11/oculus-santa-cruz-hands-on/

Rift+touch price permanently dropped to 399$

New software(2.0) for rift

I also liked the announcement of new app that will stream live events and sports to oculus.

Anandtech has good article, worth a read

Despite the lower price, the Go has a higher resolution display than the Rift. The Go features a 2560x1440 “Fast-switch” LCD display, which is a bump up from the 2160x1200 combined resolution of the two OLED displays in the Rift. Fast-Switch likely means a higher refresh rate, but no specifications have been announced yet to see how it compared to the 90 Hz of the Rift. Oculus is also promoting the optical lenses are new and improved for the Go, offering a wider field of view and less glare

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11924/oculus-announces-oculus-go-untethered-vr-for-199-usd

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If it doesn't need phone, PC or cables, and costs $200, it'll be very anaemic, good only for VR video I imagine.