Rift, Vive, and Virtual Reality

Discussion in 'VR and AR' started by idsn6, May 8, 2013.

  1. hughJ

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    263
    I'd expect this generation of hardware to last as long as Oculus and HTC can manage to stretch things out. It seems to me like little of the necessary groundwork is in place to see a near-quadrupling of pixel throughput - whether it be GPU power, display panels, MIPI bridge chips, or a market of users itching to drop another grand on a new generation. Perhaps something in the realm of 1.5k per eye, but with some flavor of HDR? Even then we're probably talking no sooner than mid-2018.
     
    pjbliverpool likes this.
  2. Ike Turner

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,884
    Likes Received:
    1,756
    Yup. Not expecting any major advances until mid/end-2018. The market just isn't there to rush things out. And seeing how PSVR isn't setting things on fire (as many in the industry expected given the console's lack of power/price and dodgy tracking) don't expect a hard push from Microsoft with Scorpio. they will instead focus on their Windows 10 Creators update stuff and entry level AR/VR/MR OEMS HMDs..
     
    RootKit likes this.
  3. one

    one Unruly Member
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,823
    Likes Received:
    153
    Location:
    Minato-ku, Tokyo
    When foveated rendering becomes viable 4K will be no issue, my ex-colleague founded FOVE which started shipping its first version some weeks ago. But even without it I think high-end headsets should have a clear edge against the likes of PSVR and Win10 VR headsets, and just showing a 2D movie in VR won't require much performance if AA is disabled. I use the BigScreen app to watch 2D movies. Somehow I didn't notice shortcomings in the Rift when I tried it in event showfloors, but after I obtained it its low-res and godrays annoy me a lot, with a bit more pushing it would become the forerunner of VR but I'm afraid many people might be disillusioned by the IQ. I agree 2018 will be the turning point for VR, still I wish VR enthusiasts are able to peek into the bright future of VR to maintain enthusiasm.
     
    Arwin likes this.
  4. xz321zx

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2016
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    31
    FOV requirement they have for "immersive VR" killed pixel density so there aren't even suitable display panels for "high-end VR" in that ~600 dollar price bracket - high pixel density microdisplays are ~200 usd/ panel. Color sequential would offer triple pixel density without extra subpixel related screendoor, so that's a win-win, but there are no color sequential panels with amplitude modulated grayscale afaik, and binary grayscale is not optimal in a near eye display. "IGZO-MEMS" would be something like that, but it's MIA and probably binary grayscale.
     
  5. hughJ

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    263
    A lot of things have to fall into place for foveated rendering to truly work (ie. deliver huge optimization benefits in a 99.999...% reliable way), and it will probably require a rethinking of the current VR compositing and predictive pose pipeline. I can't see us getting foveated rendering by 2018. I think we're much more likely to see buffer optimizations like checkerboarding and aggressive fixed zone tiered resolutions (multi-res shading) in order to cheat our way to 2k per eye. By 2018 we're still going to have a lot of rx480s, 1060s, and 1070s floating around - whatever next-gen HMD we get will have to be suited for that hardware.

    In terms of movie/video viewing specifically, I think we'll probably get something out of the mobile sector that'll push to 4K before the tethered high-end gaming HMDs do. Probably a GearVR + Galaxy S8/Note8. 4K@60Hz and a focus on rudimentary content and traditional media is a lot more reasonable there. Oculus's compositor already allows for rendering different layers at different resolutions, so you could have your 3D theater rendered at 1080p-ish fidelity, while the theater screen is maxed out. Granted that all still assumes that mandated HDCP can be relaxed, which is a roadblock right now.
     
    one likes this.
  6. Ike Turner

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,884
    Likes Received:
    1,756
    #1566 Ike Turner, Jan 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  7. hughJ

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    263
    That's the right choice I think. The next serious push on the VR platform should really be shelved until the hardware and software is worthy of a "2.0"-like launch. Consumers are already being pushed to their limit by being presented with these iterative half-step consoles while being prodded to buy a new HDR+4K TV.

    The media-related tech industry as a whole seems to be primed to fall flat on its face in the coming year or two. We have 4K+HDR televisions vying for consumer dollars, but lack the content, devices, and network infrastructure to adequately support them. We have the same with VR, albeit more complicated, plus the HMDs are even less ready for mass market than 4K televisions are. Those things are not likely to get resolved in the coming year or two. In addition to all that we've still got a looming technological winter due to silicon fabrication's uncertain(certain?) future. edit: It reads to me like some sort of mashup of Silicon Valley and Game of Thrones.
     
    RootKit and Silent_Buddha like this.
  8. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,060
    Likes Received:
    5,005
    I think VR needs to take the approach that Microsoft is taking with HoloLens. Slowly seed it into the development community. Let them figure out what to do with it. Then if and when the time is right, introduce it to the consumer at large. And in the meantime work on refining the hardware experience and work on reducing the cost to manufacture.

    Unfortunately, VR went with a relatively huge media and hype push, trying to drive as much interest as possible before there was enough compelling content to keep people interested long term while they worked on refining the hardware and making it affordable. Yes, Microsoft do market HoloLens at certain events, but not nearly like the hype train that existed for VR prior to the Rift, Vive, and PSVR launches.

    It could be argued that VR couldn't take the slow and conservative approach that Microsoft is taking with HoloLens. After all VR has been in and out of the public eye for well over a decade now, albeit its current incarnation is far more accomplished and solid than previous forays into the public market. And VR (the current incarnation) isn't or at least wasn't originally being backed by a company that could afford to take a long term approach to it.

    VR is tantalizingly close, but not nearly close enough to be appealing to anything but a very small niche market or to a larger audience that views it as a curiosity that is interesting but not compelling (like a roller coaster, it's fun, but most people wouldn't want to ride one every day).

    Who knows, maybe with the Creator's update coming to Windows, and cheap headsets, it'll spur more experimentation and maybe something compelling will come out of that. I doubt it, but you never know.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    RootKit likes this.
  9. hughJ

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    263
    I think the complicating factor with VR (and specifically Oculus) is the evolution it's gone through in the past 4-5 years, and they chose to stick with the commitments and overall business plan that were made during that 2013-2014 period. They had partnerships built on the understanding that there'd be some kind of commercial product launch sooner rather than later, and probably a good deal of internal pressure for that launch to be a finely polished jewel for Facebook. Personally I'd rather Oculus have continued the "devkit" iteration scheme (or some other moniker that similarly relaxes consumer expectations) so that they could continue more open lines of communication regarding the evolution of the SDK, retain faster turnaround times on updates, and not feel nearly so squeamish about admitting to engineering limitations, be hesitant to speak about upcoming advancements, or give a rough vision for the platform's future.

    And all that said, we're still talking about a company that opted to use a proprietary cable connector for their HDMI+USB tether and somehow still do not offer a replacement part for sale even 9+ months after launch. It's weird how in some ways the company feels state of the art, and in others it feels like it's being run by children.
     
    Ike Turner likes this.
  10. Ike Turner

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,884
    Likes Received:
    1,756
    Here's a nice Mixed Reality Proof of Concept showing collaboration between and HTC VIVE and a HoloLens:



    http://drewgottlieb.net/2017/01/31/mixing-reality-with-vr.html

    Yup the HoloLens user can use the Vive controllers to du exactly the same action as the Vive user etc..

    Source Code is here: https://github.com/dag10/HoloViveObserver
     
    RootKit likes this.
  11. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    7,583
    Likes Received:
    703
    Location:
    Guess...
    Has anyone played the "Don't knock twice" demo on Oculus store? I guess until we get Resident Evil 7 VR mode that's the best we'll get, but my god it was scary enough! I literally screamed out loud at the top of my voice at one point. This was at 2am when the wife and baby were asleep. Must have thought I was being murdered!
     
  12. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    7,583
    Likes Received:
    703
    Location:
    Guess...
  13. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,852
    Likes Received:
    4,462
    It was meant to be played like this?

    0% positive reviews in Steam so far. Looks like the DRM is killing it.


    I would've bought this for PSVR if the price was reasonable, given the reportedly short experience. Asking for 40-60€ for the game isn't reasonable IMO.
    Even if/when they get this game up and running on the PC, I doubt it'll fare any better at its current price.
     
  14. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    7,583
    Likes Received:
    703
    Location:
    Guess...
    So you're making that judgement from 2 reviews in Steam that could quite easily be by Vive users that the game doesn't even support. Meanwhile, on Oculus store it's rated 4/5 stars and not a single one of the 30 reviews mentions any start up problems... Go figure.

    Personally I won't get it until it supports Touch, but the price is fairly reasonable here at £29.99.
     
  15. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,852
    Likes Received:
    4,462
    They're selling a VR game on Steam without Vive support??

    No wonder VR in the PC is a total mess...
     
  16. manux

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,547
    Likes Received:
    395
    Location:
    Earth
  17. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    7,583
    Likes Received:
    703
    Location:
    Guess...
    Since when was "VR in the PC a total mess"?

    If you have a Rift, you get all your games through the Oculus store and everything is 100% compatible. Where's the mess there? And Steam is quite clear that the game requires an Oculus Rift to play.
     
  18. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,852
    Likes Received:
    4,462
    Sales are a mess. For Oculus specifically popularity is a mess.

    PC should try to be an unified platform as much as possible. There are no radeon-only games, no logitech mice-only games, no Intel-only games, no 4K-monitor only games, etc. for a reason.

    In this particular case we have Steam selling a VR game that only works with a VR headset which is not the headset sold and marketed by Steam.
    It's a mess.
     
    #1578 ToTTenTranz, Feb 12, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
    RootKit and BRiT like this.
  19. manux

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,547
    Likes Received:
    395
    Location:
    Earth
    You do realize steam is fairly open in its nature on purpose? The requirements for games in steam are clearly presented. If you try to buy something you don't have hardware for you will get a popup saying that hey, you need x&z to use this title, are you sure you want to proceed buying? There is no way to accidentally buy a game you don't have hardware for, at least not anymore than trying to load xbox game on ps4 from disc and complaining that game doesn't work even though the disc fits.

    Oculus store is not open. That is a big negative to me and a reason why I don't buy anything from oculus store that I can get now or possibly later from steam.
     
  20. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,852
    Likes Received:
    4,462
    I do.
    I'm not blaming this on Valve, I'm blaming it on Crytek.

    Regardless, having to keep a tabs on either you have the correct VR headset or not is quite bothersome. One should assume a brand new $800 VR headset purchased on Steam should be compatible with all VR games available on Steam.
     
    RootKit and BRiT like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...