Rift, Vive, and Virtual Reality
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I've been very busy lately. Don't have time for a detailed response or to look up the specific models.
However, their entire line of 4k 65" OLED TVs from a couple years ago were hugely delayed. There was a large thread about it in AVSforum back then tracking people's order progress. Many people gave up and cancelled their pre-orders and just got 70+ inch LCD TVs instead. There were also significant delays for some of their 55" class 1080p OLEDs for early adopters a couple years prior to that. I stopped tracking the progress as I was one of the ones that ended up just opting for a large screen LCD as opposed to waiting for a chance to pay 6500-15000 USD for one of the 65" 4K OLEDs (15k was for the next larger screen size that would be in extremely limited quantities). Those weren't the MSRPs for them. Those were the discounted early adopter pre-order prices that some members were offered by their contacts (regional Best Buy managers, specialized AV outlets, etc.) I believe MSRP was originally going to be 9500 USD for the 65" version and is what was advertised on LG's website. But, IIRC, that price was later increased both on their website and in future promotional material before any device was shipped to a customer. I'm not sure what the final MSRP ended up being. It was a relatively large fiasco (among early adopters) at the time.
They also goofed on the pre-order pricing. Their official distributors gave early adopters prices as low as 6500 USD if they pre-ordered. But before a single unit had shipped, LG had increased the buy in price for their distributors significantly over what they originally told their distributors they'd be able to get them for. This included large customers like Best Buy as well as some of the smaller boutique shops that are popular on AVSforum.
I'm not sure what the final price or even final ship date ended up being as I stopped tracking the whole thing after about 4 or 5 months.
Regards,
SB
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I see, thanks for the explanation! I guess that sucks when you have to wait that long and have the price change all the time. In Europe it's the same; but all LG Oleds models have been in stock at a large retailer in my country. At least in the stores. the 'expensive' prices made sure they didn't sell out all the time 
I was waiting for a no-tax special offer but always when that offer was, they excluded the LG tv's. Or they were 'out of stock' to return the day after.. Anyway, be glad that you didn't get it then, even last years models are full of artefacts. Nevermind the price being reduced significantly.
It's about time the community took at critical look at Palmer his... 'statements'? Palmer is right though: people lie all the time. Something that might be true today, could be a lie in the future.
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/com...er_i_prefer_production_that/d2h7zeb?context=3
I was waiting for a no-tax special offer but always when that offer was, they excluded the LG tv's. Or they were 'out of stock' to return the day after.. Anyway, be glad that you didn't get it then, even last years models are full of artefacts. Nevermind the price being reduced significantly.It's about time the community took at critical look at Palmer his... 'statements'? Palmer is right though: people lie all the time. Something that might be true today, could be a lie in the future.
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/com...er_i_prefer_production_that/d2h7zeb?context=3
It's only a lie if you knowingly misinform. If you provide information that is, to your knowledge, accurate at the time, then you're mistaken (or naive, or ill informed, or lacked foresight, or are unlucky, etc), but not a liar.
In September 2015 he claimed the final price was "roughly in the 350 ballpark"; less than 3 months later they revealed the price to be 599. I don't really believe this was a last minute change. So the knowingly misinformed people, in my opinion.
Though... it's possible, for example, a screen cost 200 dollars, and the rest cost 150 dollar. Palmer could have thought; we have one screen, and some hardware so that adds up to about 350 dollar. But he forgot that they have 2 screens instead of one, so instead of 350 dollar the total would be 550 dollar. Also some people higher up then decided that the Xbox One controller and a game should be mandatory, so add another 50. Palmer could still honestly have believed that it shipped with 1 screen, no controller and no game. So he indeed is not to blame.
Farfetched? maybe. but impossible? No. Same with the other statements he made in the past.
Also this:
He could still believe non-vr controllers are pretty shitty (let's be honest: they are), but if his boss decides that they should be included, then if he never says anything about them anymore, he was still telling the truth. Now if he would say: "Xbox controllers are really great for VR" then he could still be telling the truth; maybe he just changed his opinion.
Though... it's possible, for example, a screen cost 200 dollars, and the rest cost 150 dollar. Palmer could have thought; we have one screen, and some hardware so that adds up to about 350 dollar. But he forgot that they have 2 screens instead of one, so instead of 350 dollar the total would be 550 dollar. Also some people higher up then decided that the Xbox One controller and a game should be mandatory, so add another 50. Palmer could still honestly have believed that it shipped with 1 screen, no controller and no game. So he indeed is not to blame.
Farfetched? maybe. but impossible? No. Same with the other statements he made in the past.
Also this:
Your comment about lying was general. In this case Palmer may well have lied outright. That doesn't change the fact that something can't be true today to become a lie later. That means it wasn't true in the first place.
That's pretty funny, the guy really is world class at putting foot in mouth.
I do strongly disagree (with both you and Palmer as it happens) that gamepads are a shitty input for VR. For some first person experiences, they most certainly are. But for many - arguably a majority of experiences, they are going to end up better than hand controllers. Experiences live Eve, Luckeys Tale, puzzle games and just about any racing/driving/flying game are all going to work better on a gamepad. That's why I'm not bothered that I'll be getting Oculus in July (fingers crossed!) without the hand controllers. IMO there are tons of compelling experiences that are going to be awesome on the gamepad (especially for a 3dVision whore like myself), and then later when the touch controllers release, I get to experience a whole new world of possibilities. It's like Christmas coming twice.
Okay guess I had a wrong definition of lying then. And that's no lie!
Gamepads like DS4 are perfect for VR, IMO, and the best input method for the majority of games I plan to play in VR, so we are (kind of) in agreement pjbliverpool You have direct, precise input; you have a touchpad and you full acceleration and gyros, a compass and you also have 3d XYZ mapping accurate to the mm when facing your TV.
DS4 is actually a hybrid of the touch controller and the Xbox One controller.
Gamepads like DS4 are perfect for VR, IMO, and the best input method for the majority of games I plan to play in VR, so we are (kind of) in agreement pjbliverpool
You have direct, precise input; you have a touchpad and you full acceleration and gyros, a compass and you also have 3d XYZ mapping accurate to the mm when facing your TV.DS4 is actually a hybrid of the touch controller and the Xbox One controller.
Okay guess I had a wrong definition of lying then. And that's no lie!
Gamepads like DS4 are perfect for VR, IMO, and the best input method for the majority of games I plan to play in VR, so we are (kind of) in agreement pjbliverpool
DS4 is actually a hybrid of the touch controller and the Xbox One controller.
I don't agree. I honestly expect the motion control on the DS4 to be a gimmick at best for VR. It's not a suitable replacement for a proper move type controller and for games that don't require that type of control, then rendering a digital version of it in the game world that maps movements to the real world is going to a) Just get in the way of your view, and b) reduce immersion in the game world. I know there have been one or two demo's that did this to good effect but the applicability is extremely limited.
Perhaps there's an argument to be made that using the tilt capability to steer a car in the VR world would be a good option (while still being much worse than an actual wheel), but then how often does that get used in 2D game vs the thumb stick? As for the touch pad, I struggle to see what benefit that can have in VR at all vs a simple look and click system.
It depends if you think the majority of VR games will be sitting or standing. Both hands on a controller feels most ergonomic when sitting, while two hands motion controls is more ergonomic when standing.
The reason motion gaming doesn't work well on a TV is that there's no spatial relationship, you move a controller in front of you, and it move something 6 feet in front on a TV. You need a significant abstraction anyway. In VR the controller is physically at the place where your hands are. The basic controller OTOH is the gamer's muscle memory, you don't think about it. DS4 can do both.
I can't figure out why Oculus didn't add an IR-led pattern and a 9-axis sensor to the bundled controller. The current state is that the 3 platforms have a completely different default controller, specially Oculus/Vive which have almost no overlap. How will the big games do ports?
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I just don't see the benefit of being able to see the controller mapped to real world movements in the game world (outside of a few extreme corner cases). It's not as if I regularly look down at my controller when playing games on a monitor, and it I did that in a VR world, it would just be some weird disembodied floating controller that would instantly take me out of the immersion of being in that world. EDIT: actually come to think of it, it could be extremely useful in a virtual theatre mode when playing 2d games.
With regards to the default controller, I imagine Vive and Rift will just do what all cross platform PC games do and default to the 360/XBO control scheme (since clearly keyboard/mouse aren't an option). And for games that require or benefit from hand controllers, they will ultimately each have their own set which are similar enough to provide a common control scheme.
With regards to the default controller, I imagine Vive and Rift will just do what all cross platform PC games do and default to the 360/XBO control scheme (since clearly keyboard/mouse aren't an option). And for games that require or benefit from hand controllers, they will ultimately each have their own set which are similar enough to provide a common control scheme.
A VR mech game could have gyro aiming for the main cannon. A platformer could use it for special powers or a lock-on system for those special powers. Also adding immersion in VR is not a gimmick; every situation where you have your controller mapped the same way as you hold it in real life will be beneficial.
This is an old but interesting video if you really are interested in the subject:
This is an old but interesting video if you really are interested in the subject:
How popular are these types of gimmicks in normal 2d gaming? Because I see no reason why they would be more popular in VR. I remember playing Donkey Kong on the Wii were I had to shake the controller to do a butt smash. What a pain in the ass that was. Yes, that was deliberate...
anything that is not 1:1 will feel weird.
gyro aiming will be weird. I think it will be better to use analogue stick to control "tank aiming" that is slow.
but even better if you just make the robots have versatile movement like gundam. so its 1:1 movement using head or psmove.
gyro aiming will be weird. I think it will be better to use analogue stick to control "tank aiming" that is slow.
but even better if you just make the robots have versatile movement like gundam. so its 1:1 movement using head or psmove.
So I finally got my CV1 on Thursday. Seem to have gotten lucky with the OLED panels (no red haze). SDE is better than I expected (initially surprising considering the minor resolution bump from DK2). Lens glare I think I'm okay with, but I haven't tried Elite Dangerous yet.
Strangely enough my biggest complaint by far would actually be the FOV (specifically the inner FOV/stereo overlap). Coming from DK2's 100% binocular overlap, CV1 immediately felt 'off' in the sense that I feel constant subtle stereo conflict, while the DK2 feels much more natural in this department. If I had to guess, this choice to bias the FOV outward was probably made to boost the total binocular horizontal FOV to compensate for the reduced per-eye FOV (and the reduced per-eye FOV is probably to boost the perceived pixel density.)
Still haven't tried the Vive yet, but I think in the FOV department it should be more similar to the DK2. Also I would say even more now that when it comes to shared experiences (juggling the HMD between people) that PSVR is probably in another league from the PC VR devices. After spending the time to dial in a comfortable fitting of the CV1, I'm kind of hesitant to corral my friends to try it for a few minutes as it will probably take just as much time to get them fitted optimally and changed back to myself again. And the idea of constant manipulation of the velcro straps between different users worries me as they don't feel particularly robust to handle month after month of that.
Not unhappy with it by any means, but it's interesting that even with $600-800 price points that VR HMDs seem defined by tradeoffs just as much as they were before.
Strangely enough my biggest complaint by far would actually be the FOV (specifically the inner FOV/stereo overlap). Coming from DK2's 100% binocular overlap, CV1 immediately felt 'off' in the sense that I feel constant subtle stereo conflict, while the DK2 feels much more natural in this department. If I had to guess, this choice to bias the FOV outward was probably made to boost the total binocular horizontal FOV to compensate for the reduced per-eye FOV (and the reduced per-eye FOV is probably to boost the perceived pixel density.)
Still haven't tried the Vive yet, but I think in the FOV department it should be more similar to the DK2. Also I would say even more now that when it comes to shared experiences (juggling the HMD between people) that PSVR is probably in another league from the PC VR devices. After spending the time to dial in a comfortable fitting of the CV1, I'm kind of hesitant to corral my friends to try it for a few minutes as it will probably take just as much time to get them fitted optimally and changed back to myself again. And the idea of constant manipulation of the velcro straps between different users worries me as they don't feel particularly robust to handle month after month of that.
Not unhappy with it by any means, but it's interesting that even with $600-800 price points that VR HMDs seem defined by tradeoffs just as much as they were before.
I'm slightely worried about the amount of fiddling it seems to require to get it fitted correctly since my headset is going to be shared with the wife in what will likely be a pretty even split of play time.
I wouldn't worry about it. I'm mainly thinking of situations where you're having to quickly shuffle inexperienced people in and out for short sessions (asymmetric party games, running people through demos, etc.) Sharing it equally with another person day to day shouldn't be a big deal as you both will get used to eyeballing where the velcro straps should be and the first time you both try it on and nitpick over the fit you'll have a pretty good idea of what it should feel like for future reference.
edit: bought and tried 'The Climb' today. I think I've spent more on VR software in the last 6 months than I have regular PC games in the past 6 years.
Also going out shopping tomorrow to see if I can cobble together some sort of wall mount for the HMD, and maybe some kind of wiring harness to keep the cable off the floor. Thinking some arrangement of 3M command strip hooks might work okay. I've already had a couple close calls with the wheels of my office chair and the HMD cable - not a fun thought considering it's not exactly something you can pick up at Best Buy.
edit: bought and tried 'The Climb' today. I think I've spent more on VR software in the last 6 months than I have regular PC games in the past 6 years.
Also going out shopping tomorrow to see if I can cobble together some sort of wall mount for the HMD, and maybe some kind of wiring harness to keep the cable off the floor. Thinking some arrangement of 3M command strip hooks might work okay. I've already had a couple close calls with the wheels of my office chair and the HMD cable - not a fun thought considering it's not exactly something you can pick up at Best Buy.
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I just canceled my preorder.
Tonight on reddit oculus announced that they switched preorders from next day to ground , this is after the multiple months of delays , the constant insults by palmer , the bundles shipping first and people were allowed to return the pc and keep the rift then the announcement that rifts will be avalible at best buy , amazon and ms the end of this week but now the ground shipping.
This company is screwed up. I'm don't want to do business with them anymore
Tonight on reddit oculus announced that they switched preorders from next day to ground , this is after the multiple months of delays , the constant insults by palmer , the bundles shipping first and people were allowed to return the pc and keep the rift then the announcement that rifts will be avalible at best buy , amazon and ms the end of this week but now the ground shipping.
This company is screwed up. I'm don't want to do business with them anymore
Those are some screwed up priorities. I can't think of a single company that'd decline to honour preorders in favour of selling their stock to retail. Is that even legal?! Surely they can't sell their stock to retail as long as they have contracts to supply to paid customers already?
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