Revolution's Hardware: What do we really know until now? The inquisitive minds enter

[Farid]

Since IGN released a part of the specs from the development kit docs, some people did refer to "supposed" claims by Ati saying that the GPU had a DX9 featureset and wasn't built on the Flipper architecture.
I also read people making reference to the development cost of Hollywood, for Nintendo, saying that it costed as much as C1/Xenos for Microsoft.
Nintendo folks are also said to have been interviewed, a few years ago, about a "secret" add-on for the GC, that could rival with eye-toy and give the GC a new direction.

Now, I call these claims "supposed" because, after asking around a bit, nobody in the know from Ati is remembered from saying anything precise about the Nintendo GPU.
Same thing for the amount of money, or the nature of the deal, between Ati and Nintendo, the guys who follow the Ati results don't know anything precise about it.

So, the point of this thread was to recollect all the public claims made about both the Hollywood and the Ati deal. Same thing about the claims concerning the Gamecube rumored Add-on.

So if you have a link to anything said on record by an Ati or a Nintendo representative, feel free to post it in this thread.

In other words, this thread is meant to help us differentiate what was a claim and what was a random rumor back then.

It could also help us to understand if any changes have, indeed or not, been made with regard to the architecture of the Revolution hardware.

That is, if people care about that subject, of course.
Personally, I'm always interested in every change made to hardware trough its development.


For those who read the Nintendo NCL's financial reports, the nature of the Ati deal might have been disclosed in one of these reports.

 

[booomups]

well, at least to me nintendo reached theire goal and made me care less about the hardware and i now am full with big expectations for the new controller and the games.

 

[Megadrive1988]

well we know the ATI-Nintendo deal was officially announced in March 2003, even though it's obvious work had already been underway for well over a year, maybe two years, probably even before Gamecube launched in Japan in Sept 2001.

ATI themselves, first hand, never said the next-gen Nintendo GPU would have DX9 level shaders, that was 2nd or 3rd hand info.

 

[StefanS]

I think this post by Megadrive1988 sums it up quite nicely.

BTW, amazing thread title

 

[Farid]

I think this post by Megadrive1988 sums it up quite nicely.

Indeed!

edit: gathering some comments about the ATI GPU for Nintendo GCN2 ~ Revolution


March 2003 link

ATI Announces Technology Development Agreement with Nintendo

Tuesday March 4, 2003

MARKHAM, Ontario – ATI Technologies, Inc. (TSX: ATY, NASDAQ: ATYT), a world leader in the design and manufacture of innovative 3D graphics and digital media silicon solutions, announced today that it has entered into a technology development agreement with Nintendo Co., Ltd. Under the agreement, ATI and Nintendo are developing technologies for use in Nintendo products. No other details regarding the nature of this agreement are being made available at this time.

"ATI has had an excellent relationship with Nintendo for many years," said David Orton, President and Chief Operating Officer, ATI Technologies Inc. "We are pleased to enter into this major technology development agreement with Nintendo."

March 2003 link

As for consoles, he hopes to leverage ATI's separate east and west coast graphics design teams to snag deals to provide chips both to Microsoft's as well as Nintendo's next-generation consoles. (ATI already provides graphics technology in Nintendo's current GameCube, a deal Orton won as chief executive of ArtX, which ATI purchased nearly three years ago.)

"Anyone who wants to hit 2005 with a new console better make some decisions quickly. We think they need to decide soon or wait until 2006 to ship," Orton said.

July 2003 link

Dear Matt, What have you found out, if anything, about the successor to GameCube?
Matty

Matt responds: A fine question. Well, I don't have enough to run with a news piece, but after talking to several insider pals around the industry here's what I've been able to come up with:

* The console is being referred to as GameCube 2 internally
* ATI has been in development with a graphics chip for "GCN 2" for more than a year; it's supposedly coming along very nicely
* Several games are already being designed with the system in mind, though no hardware is yet available
* The hardware is expected to ultimately ship at a $299 price point -- directly against Xbox 2 and PS3

August 2003 link

Don't expect the graphics capabilities of future Nintendo and Microsoft products to be exactly the same, however, the ATI spokesman said. "Yes, we have different design teams working on them, with different requirements and different timetables," the spokesman said.

September 2003 link

ATI gave some infomation on video cards market pentration data, and had a quick gloat about being in both Microsoft's and Nintendo's next gen console, no real info on them (obviously) except for one tiny snippet, that we should expect at least Dx9 level shaders on both. Wether or not its the same basic core being used in both they didn't say.

November 2003 link

FiringSquad: ATI has announced agreements with both Microsoft and Nintendo. Are two separate development teams tackling these projects, and if so, do you anticipate spreading yourself a little too thin?

Dave: We haven’t yet announced what we’re working on for either Microsoft or Nintendo. However, when you move into a new business, you need to establish an advantage. We’re looking at the console market as an opportunity to help drive the 3D experience. We have both East and West coast development teams that are able to work on different projects. It has actually created even more focus.

January 2006 link

Nintendo has gone on record saying that graphics are not their number one concern. A bold statement considering the graphical prowess of it's next-gen competitors, the PS3 and XBox 360. That doesn't mean, however, that Nintendo is completely negating their graphics.

In a recent interview with revolutionreport.com, John Swinimer, ATI's Public Relations Manager for Consumer Products, spoke on several aspects of ATI's relationship with Nintendo. Swinimer says the new ATI card for the Nintendo Revolution will be a console specific model and not a card based off of any of their PC models or their Flipper chipset.

"It's not, for example, like we took a PC design and said 'oh, you know what? If we tweak this and test this, it will work in a console.' [That's] not the case," Swinimer said.

On the topic of issues with the Revolution's size and the possiblity of heat problems, Swiminer said that this has been taken into consideration.
"The form factor design of even some of the newer consumer electronics devices are getting smaller and smaller, and we are taking that into great consideration, all across the board. I don't know if you are aware of this, but ATI has graphics chips in Motorola RAZRs. ATI has graphics chips inside many consumer electronic designs and heat is definitely a consideration, so we definitely take that into consideration when we are designing new chips."

The lingering question on Nintendo's statement on graphics still hangs in the air, however. Is this an indication that ATI's chipset will be relativly less powerful than other next-gen consoles? "What I can say is that ATI is focused, as is Nintendo, in making [Revolution] a great, gaming entertainment platform. I know that a lot of journalists are very focused on specs. It's the big thing; as a geek, I look for that too. The key thing to keep in mind is that Nintendo, with ATI's help, is trying to create a game console where you don't have to look at [specs]," said Swinimer.

It's interesting that as late as 2003 Ati told developers to expect DX9 features and IGN thought that the Console will go head to head with the competition.

That still conforts the idea that the Revolution hadrware that we see today might not be the one Nintendo/Ati were working on a couple a years ago.

BTW, amazing thread title

Heh heh, it took 750M dollars and five hundred engineers to come up with this new thread title architecture [/Jen-Hsun Huang]

 

[one]

Wasn't it an unnamed ATI employee at some event who said Rev GPU would be 2x GC perf or something like that and quickly denied it later?

 

[Farid]

Wasn't it an unnamed ATI employee at some event who said Rev GPU would be 2x GC perf or something like that and quickly denied it later?

Ati also asked the press to remove any mention of this interview, that was 6 months or a year ago.

 

[Urian]

Imagining ATi making a GPU from 0 that has 2 times the performance of the GCN GPU when with a simple overclock they could make it is just ridiculous.

 

[Farid]

Imagining ATi making a GPU from 0 that has 2 times the performance of the GCN GPU when with a simple overclock they could make it is just ridiculous.

Go ahead, develop your point of view.

What do you mean, that the Revolution GPU is more than what IGN says or that you think that the original GPU was scrapped for a simple refresh of the Flipper?

 

[Brimstone]

I also read people making reference to the development cost of Hollywood, for Nintendo, saying that it costed as much as C1/Xenos for Microsoft.

If Broadway cost the same as Xenos, that might reflect total cost for the rights with no royalty payments. Nintendo may have thought it's the controller that'll matter not the GPU, so why give a slice of software sales to ATI when their technology isn't going to driving the demand. Another way of putting it, Nintendo may have just payed ATI a lump sum for the GPU, with no strings attached.

 

[Urian]

Go ahead, develop your point of view.

What do you mean, that the Revolution GPU is more than what IGN says or that you think that the original GPU was scrapped for a simple refresh of the Flipper?

It can be 2 things:

First, a GPU made from Flipper tweaked for supporting new Graphical FX that aren´t supported by the Flipper, FSAA optimization and remade TEV (now with the Power of a Shader Model 3.0) and with more units in the core.

Second, a new GPU from 0 capable of running Flipper code.

I can understand that Hollywood is a better version with more units, new elements and optimized for next gen visuals but at the same time I cannot believe that Hollywood is just an overclocked Flipper only.

 

[tEd]

What i think is a bit odd that while they are in agreement for 3 years and end up only with die shrunk flipper/higher clocked. If it really turns out to be true what the hell did they do in those 3 years.

I mean how much time do you need to shrink an available design .

 

[pc999]

Well my contribuition will be little as most info is already here but here it goes.

(supossed) Proof for a shader capable GPU

http://www.blitzgames.com/technology/flameprint.htm

In light of announcements by hardware manufacturers it is clear that shaders play an important role across all emerging console platforms from PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 through Revolution to the PC.

This is the same team that said not long ago (+/- 6 months ago, I think but cant find the link) that they do not know if their game would appear on the Rev because they didnt know if it can run it.

While I cant find the link for now see this (long before any rumor of an unpaired Rev), anyway I will try to find the other one.

What platforms are you developing Possession for?
Possession is truly next generation in both gameplay and presentation. Expect to see it hit PlayStation 3 and Xbox 2 in 2007, as well as a high-end PC version in the same year.

and latter

Possession is currently in development for the PC, PlayStation 3, and Xbox 360, and will

A litle time ago

The latest Revolution Game had been revealed. Published by Blitz Games, Possession will also be released on PC, Xbox 360 and Playstation 3.

So this must be based on fresh info.



There is other company that said it is using a DX9 engine but I cant find it now in all my posts.


Second you do have the info from EDGE mag.

How much better, goes Nintendo’s reckoning, does Mario, a cartoon-styled character with a simple, bold-hued outfit, need to look? It’s a fair point. How much better does the next Metroid Prime need to look? The answer is said to be about on par with what a dual-core-CPU PC running an X800 graphics card could manage

My opinion in this matter should be well know, anyway if this IGN is true I advice you to wait for much better sources of info (till today only IGN say this) or at very least wait for someone how can write well and that know of what he is talking (this Matt said that it is cheaper to model for next gen because it is easier to making a good looking model if you have more polys he dont even thought on all of the additional detail or that in many games there isnt that much more polys per model for example).

 

[Teasy]

this Matt said that it is cheaper to model for next gen because it is easier to making a good looking model if you have more polys

Did he really say that?

Just FYI Matt also said that Revolution definitely wouldn't use full size DVD discs and that it definitely wouldn't have any backwards compatability (just before the big announcement that it would be backwards compatible with every Nintendo console ever made ).

 

[Ooh-videogames]

Why not just codename the chipset Gekko 2 and Flipper 2, if all they did was increase the clock rate.

Really, it just explains why Nintendo chose to not reveal the specs. They new that the average gamer would misinterpret the numbers. The only true test of the hardware is the games. And Matt revealing these very vague specs just added a nail in Nintendo coffin. Its obvious Devs have yet to acquire Hollywood and run benchmarks, aswell more detailed documentation.

Unless the dev leaking this info, requested that other info be kept underwraps. Which I highly doubt.

I'm going to send an e-mail to Matt in hope that he responds, to the question of whether or not he and devs have more info about Hollywood then just clock rate.

 

[pc999]

Did he really say that?

In the Q&A thing he have, a few (2-4?) weeks ago (sorry but no link).

BTW Thanks to Fearsomepirate in the other thread

Revolution

Have you heard ANYTHING at all about Revolution?

Matt responds: Not much. A couple details here and there. Got word the other day that Nintendo is telling some developers to start speccing for the system, but without any concrete hardware info. Just "super high-end PC stuff," according to one source. Xbox 2 or Xenon is supposed to be roughly 15 to 20 times as powerful as Xbox, and Revolution will allegedly be similarly capable, if not more so. It does launch a year later. Unofficial Revolution ship date is September 2006, or so some publishers/developers are being told.

Link:2004-10-22

Till today I dont see any reason to belive in just a 2xGC, if there as more and better sources OK, but I really advice people to wait for real info or games, but IMO I think it will be a very capable (capable |= Xb360 like) and cheap console.

Really, it just explains why Nintendo chose to not reveal the specs. They new that the average gamer would misinterpret the numbers.

Even if it can do XB/PS3 games at low rez it would always be good for them to not reveal the specs IMO, anyway I am going OT.

I'm going to send an e-mail to Matt in hope that he responds, to the question of whether or not he and devs have more info about Hollywood then just clock rate.

BTW can you ask him about the last quote to, I am just corious to know the answer.

 

[Ooh-videogames]

I'll remember to add the quote, I'll copy and paste.

 

[pc999]

Thanks.

 

[StefanS]

I thought I'll do a quick summary of the hard facts we know:

Broadway:
729MHz

Hollywood:
243MHz
3MB texture buffer
includes GPU, DSP, I/O bridge
14MBs of extra D-RAM ?
shaders ?

RAM:
main: 24MB 1T-SRAM
external: 64MB 1T-SRAM

Interestingly the RAM is split into two pools, although they seem to be absolutely identical. Maybe the 24MB are integrated into Hollywood?

 

[Megadrive1988]

I think this post by Megadrive1988 sums it up quite nicely.

BTW, amazing thread title

thanks hupfinsgack, for saving me teh trouble ^_~