Revolution Tech Details Emerge ( Xbox1+ performance, 128 MB RAM )

[mckmas8808]

How said there is a probem (at least by now), I said there is no risk and we cant live only by improvements, even if great games later in industry will suffer, is not in the first/second gen of games here gfx will make a big show and room enought for improvment but soon or later industry will suffer.

The industry won't suffer. More than likely if your dooms day theory starts to come true then Nintendo will win this next-generation due to their creative and innovative controller. And their games will cost less to make so no big deal.

 

[pc999]

The industry will not suffer because of Nintendo (IMO), it will be good for them but also good for others as we will have both innovations and improvements (and both are importante IMO, as ).

Or can you tell me a PS3/XB360 game that improve gameplay in a no expect way ,ie, more than physics, gfx, AI and animation the rest is almost equal probably the most innovative game (FPS and not only?) in XB360 is Prey and outside of FPS fans almost nobody will think that there is a difference at all, if that happens why will a no FPS play one at all, that will mean that only the real big/great games will survive etc... /actually there is a article about thisthat explain very well and go almost toe to toe with my opinion I will try to find it Edit: there is it ).

 

[Entropy]

That's really quite astonishing. Where did the ~$14M cost to develop a major title come from?

It may well have come out of someones ass.
Obviously, there are difficulties in getting good data. And as in all industries, the present players have a vested interest in dissuading new players from trying to compete with them. The best current data I've seen is here, but then again, it's from Japan only, and it is subject to the above consideration. OTOH, it doesn't concern "next-generation" consoles. On the third hand, DS data implies that more sophisticated hardware isn't necessarily more expensive to develop for than its predecessors.

THE Japanese Computer Entertainment Suppliers Association has reported that in Japan the Xbox is the most expensive system to develop for.
28 companies voluntarily disclosed their figures to the association, revealing that the average cost of producing an Xbox game is 202 million yen ($1.82 million) as opposed to 96 million yen ($877,000) to develop a game for the PS2, making the Xbox on average just short of $1 million more expensive to develop for.

The report also revealed that PSP and GameCube games both cost around 90 million yen ($822,000) to develop, while Game Boy Advance titles generally cost about 53 million yen ($484,000) with Nintendo's DS being the cheapest to develop for at only 37 million yen ($338, 286) a pop.

This was published in several places, but I shamelessly lifted it from here:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25441

Alarmist numbers with no backing, posted on a games forum by an anonyomus person - hardly the most credible data you can find.

 

[pc999]

Cant give you the link now but I already saw the ~15M$ several times from multiple devs.

Anyway most of GC/PS2 dev should be very afraid/pissed as the engine by itself may cost up to 1M (UE3 that most say it is the one that save more money even more than a in house one), so they need to spend more just to have the possibility of create a game than it cost to make the whole game and if they create instead of 3kpolys charathers they need to make 3M, how many dev do you think that can aford make games that cost + 15x than todays games and the game can even be bad, I can see nintendo having a lot of suport by this reason alone if they keep cost down.

 

[Farid]

Posts moved from the thread

I moved the OT posts about Nintendo creativity into a new thread:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26649

Now, let's keep on topic.

 

[Teasy]

Ok back on topic. Does anyone else remember a ATI conference call a little while ago where they said that Nintendo and MS were both spending a very similar amount of money on GPU R&D? If so anyone have a link?

Second does anyone remember a interview or Q&A where ATI spoke about Xenos and Hollywood (back before it was known as Hollywood) and said that both would be DX9 chips? Again if so please post a link.

I'm just trying to find out if I imagined these things happening or not

 

[pc999]

I also remember that, but I dont have link too.

I am startig to think in some kind of subdivision sufaces (or whatever is called) for the reason I already posted here.

Does the use of displacement mapping does need any more work from devs in a artistc side, or they simple do a 3k poligons model and after DM it looks like a high poligon model , or if it does more work is significantly more

IF they dont need (significantly) more work I can really see Nintendo pushing this a far as they can, once that it would keep game production costs down and reduce even more (no HD) the need for much and fast memory (?and it also give much less work to the CPU?), plus is just my impression or Nintendo (they do have the patents and already implemented in GC) and ATI also like this they have some close solutions (or at least they look soo) like TrueForm and Xenus with their shader array and tessellation unit , would make a great LOD system and even make much more reasonable why Rev dev kits are basead on GC ones (they also said that some of the main features of flipper would be improved and then appear in Hollywood and ?also share to some extent the same API? after all the tools are more or less the sames as they said right?), if it does the above (firsts lines)I will change my mind about Rev HW devolopment at all.

Edit: I meant I could see they using a powerfull and easy HW solution for DM (if they can do it) also it would explain the comments about a diferent form of rendering on the "official blog" (if we asume it as true) as well some interpretations on why call the GPU hollywood (as sugested in the blog) that in H. there are simple things that look complex and life like, like in the movies. Indeed this is very interesting.

But probably it is better here, IMO that would make sense, however I dont have the knowlegde to know if it need more art work or if is possible to do that in a good and relatevely cheap way to put it as main HW feature, any insight?

BTW good idea Vysez.

 

[Greg_Nearfield]

I also remember that, but I dont have like too.

I am startig to think in some kind of subdivision sufaces (or whatever is called) for the reason I already posted here.



But probably it is better here, IMO it would make sense that I dont the knowlegde to know if it is possible or no, any insight?

BTW good idea Vysez.

how about this

PowerPC 970FX 2GHz (24W @ 2GHz) manufactured on SSDOI
PPE custom Physics Array(28W?)

Mobility Radeon X1600 Pro@ 500MHz(24W?)
12 Pixel Pipes
5 Vertex Pipes
4 Texture Units
4 Render Back-Ends
128 Max. Threads
Core clock: 500MHz
Memory clock: 940MHz
940MHz 256MB GDDR3
157 million transistors
(source:http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=756&cid=2)
(source: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2632)
PPE custom Vertex co-processor

 

[pc999]

Is the PPE a PPU?

Anyway there is a thread for that here

But personally now I think that my first opinion may very well be wrong, or at least dependent on the flexibility of the that HW.

BTW I did a big edit (ie corrections) in the post, should be somewhat strange to write that in that form.

 

[fearsomepirate]

how about this

PowerPC 970FX 2GHz (24W @ 2GHz) manufactured on SSDOI
PPE custom Physics Array(28W?)

Mobility Radeon X1600 Pro@ 500MHz(24W?)
12 Pixel Pipes
5 Vertex Pipes
4 Texture Units
4 Render Back-Ends
128 Max. Threads
Core clock: 500MHz
Memory clock: 940MHz
940MHz 256MB GDDR3
157 million transistors
(source:http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=756&cid=2)
(source: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2632)
PPE custom Vertex co-processor

I don't think the graphics chip would be more than 300 MHz, based on the throughput numbers N has been giving devs. Prolly around 1 GHz for the CPU as well. And although we've been hearing a 96 MB of main RAM, some devs did cryptically say there would be more for "other stuff," but they couldn't count on it. I somehow doubt this is the flash memory...maybe a small pool of dedicated RAM for system stuff?

 

[wco81]

Why would they use a mobile GPU?

Is the Revolution going to run on battery?

Has any console used a stock GPU or always modified in some way?

 

[Greg_Nearfield]

I don't think the graphics chip would be more than 300 MHz, based on the throughput numbers N has been giving devs. Prolly around 1 GHz for the CPU as well. And although we've been hearing a 96 MB of main RAM, some devs did cryptically say there would be more for "other stuff," but they couldn't count on it. I somehow doubt this is the flash memory...maybe a small pool of dedicated RAM for system stuff?

the IGN specs are fake....

 

[Greg_Nearfield]

Why would they use a mobile GPU?

Is the Revolution going to run on battery?

Has any console used a stock GPU or always modified in some way?

there is no edit button

no just a normal X1600 pro with more features

I was taling about a PPE dedicated to processing Vertex arrays.

 

[StefanS]

the IGN specs are fake....

I know you're new to the forums. But at B3D you will have to back up such statements with credible sources.

 

[Greg_Nearfield]

I know you're new to the forums. But at B3D you will have to back up such statements with credible sources.

Until nintendo comfirms the unknown developers's "documents". They are deem as speculation and nothing more.

Were are these documents?

Who are these developers?

There's nothing solid. I don't trust "news" sites anymore.Especially gaming news sites.They spin rumors to be first page news and thier sponsers "advice" what systems to like and what consoles to FUD down.What a joke.How they did Sega opened my eyes to how they work.

 

[pc999]

I also agree that they arent telling us the whole story but you need to base that in something.

BTW what you mean by "I was taling about a PPE dedicated to processing Vertex arrays."

 

[Greg_Nearfield]

I also agree that they arent telling us the whole story but you need to base that in something.

BTW what you mean by "I was taling about a PPE dedicated to processing Vertex arrays."

"I was talking about a PPE dedicated to processing Vertex arrays."

personally I don't think they are "lying". I do think they are sensationalizing something that would otherwise being boring.

Like "developers get Alpha kits for REV.Nintendo hasn't finished thier hardware on REV so until then they have to make with whats the most compatible,the gamecube.Nintendo wants to get started on their third party launch titles."

See boring.Compared to....

Revolutions going to be a 500MHz 2GFLOP CPU with 20MB of DRAM doom and gloom!!!

Yep I think IGN "oversold" a otherwise boring story to get hits to thier new revolution channel.

 

[Teasy]

I don't think the graphics chip would be more than 300 MHz, based on the throughput numbers N has been giving devs. Prolly around 1 GHz for the CPU as well. And although we've been hearing a 96 MB of main RAM, some devs did cryptically say there would be more for "other stuff," but they couldn't count on it. I somehow doubt this is the flash memory...maybe a small pool of dedicated RAM for system stuff?

What throughput numbers are you referring to?

Why would they use a mobile GPU?

Is the Revolution going to run on battery?

Its little to do with the actual power the chip consumes, rather the by product of that power consumption (heat). That GPU (Mobility X1600) runs inside half inch high notebook PC's so it doesn't produce much heat at all. But at the same time is pretty much as powerful as a full desktop X1600 (all the same features, shaders ect). So I think its actually a pretty good suggestion, I've been thinking the same thing recently.

 

[Teasy]

"I was talking about a PPE dedicated to processing Vertex arrays."

personally I don't think they are "lying". I do think they are sensationalizing something that would otherwise being boring.

Like "developers get Alpha kits for REV.Nintendo hasn't finished thier hardware on REV so until then they have to make with whats the most compatible,the gamecube.Nintendo wants to get started on their third party launch titles."

See boring.Compared to....

Revolutions going to be a 500MHz 2GFLOP CPU with 20MB of DRAM doom and gloom!!!

Yep I think IGN "oversold" a otherwise boring story to get hits to thier new revolution channel.

Yeah, that's exactly what I've been thinking ever since they made that article.

By the way I don't think PC999 was referring to you're spelling error, I think he just wants you to clarify what you mean by "PPE dedicated to processing Vertex arrays". Since the PPE is a general purpose processor.

 

[pc999]

Yes is that I am talking about the PPE is the main core of Cell or Xenon, there is also the PPU which fall in the "vertex array" from what I have read (in B3D), anyway, if true, I am particulary interested I knowing why IBM had showed the Rev CPU to Apple (and why they refused it if it isnt a 750 based or if it is only becaused they are going to Intel anyways and it as too late, or just not good for desktop like eg Cell yet IBM had tried to cell it anyway), because it only make sense if it is a big revision from one of their modern cores (or they would show somethingh from the family, eg 970fx/mp, and not the Rev CPU itself ,or from is family) or it is a new core that is also suitable to desktop (with eg OoO...) and by new core you may let yor imadination run wild because it could or a PPE with OoO, or a (750->970->)1190 or whatever you can think.

Indeed there is the change of very interesting thread about rev spec in the future,IMO.

I dont think they are lying too but just talking about different things, they took the dev kits and assumed (or didnt saw the difference, or wanted publicity to their new site as you say) the final specs from it, after all dev need to start working in something but if tools are close why not give them updated GC kits?It make sense to me.I think if they had posted the all the talk they had we all would think diferent than what most of people are thinking now.