Revolution is officially called...*drumroll*

[DemoCoder]

Sigh, not that old fallacy again. There is a big difference between DVDs, which are the result of real world cinematography, or CGI rendered at 64X FSAA, and a real time game rendered at 640x480 with aliased low-res textures and edges. Real world photographs at 320x200 can even look good when upscaled. The same is not true for low-res real-time 3D renders.


My XBOX1 plays 480p DVDs, like LOTR, and they look nice on my 120" screen. However, 480p X-Box games *DON'T*. Your argument would certainly have alot more appeal if the Wii had enough power to guarantee 4X FSAA, and full 16x HQ AF, in combination with high quality textures. But the Wii doesn't have enough RAM for good textures, and it doesn't have the power for high quality detailed scenes AND sufficient antialiasing.

The result is, on a large screen, it's going to be a Jaggymeister.

 

[Guden Oden]

DC, PS3 and 360 doesn't really have enough RAM for "good" textures either. We've certainly seem enough early games with blurry textures, that's for sure. If there was room to fit sharp ones instead, or a magic wand etched onto the xenos die to magic them up, I'm sure there would be. Even in launch games. As for "16x HQ AF", DOA4 doesn't even bother to mipmap its textures, and the filtering looks like bilinear. Ant city that game is.

Doesn't matter if your specs are completely over the moon if they're not put to good use. Devs doesn't seem much interested in doing that, because the end result of their hard work is unlikely to ever be noticed by the ignorant and apparantly nearsighted gaming public...

That's why I don't think HD will be that a big deal for Nintendo. If DS vs. PSP is anything to go by, it won't be much of a problem at all.

As for how "clueless" I am regarding 40yos that game, well, do you know where to find massive amounts of near middle-aged men (primarily) that buy consoles? Well, NOT for their kids I mean.

Other than on your precious bell curve, I mean.

Just because you can define an age interval doesn't mean there automatically appears people in the real world who fit to your newly constructed example! So bracket 18 to 35 game more than below 18. Whoopee-fuckin-doo! Are we going to check next if age 35 game more than age 18, I wonder what we'll find out! What about age 40 versus 13? I think you'll find your "bell curve" drops off pretty damn sharply around the upper limit you defined. It's not a standard normal distribution, that I can assure you. People aren't mindless statistics after all.

You'll see that many around 35 have wives, kids, jobs etc, while not as many below 35 do, and thus have more spare time for gaming. For age 40, it's even worse. Not only do they have all that the above do (only even more wives, kids in fact), those people were also born so they became teens before the computing revolution, and thus belong to the group of people who grew up when it was cool to NOT know how to use them (to paraphrase Kiefer Sutherland).

So so much for me being clueless. Well, unless we hold off on this discussion for another 5-8 years or so, then you'll win the argument per default, assuming we continue to use the same ages.

 

[pipo]

The average age of a console gamer is now 29, with an above-average education and income. It's no longer about kids in their bedrooms, games are taking media time and awareness directly from TV viewership.

Source: Jack Myer, Media Business Report 2006.

I know a lot of people in the 35+ range who don't game on a PC but do own a console. Both with and without kids.

 

[NANOTEC]

Sigh, not that old fallacy again

Well if you want a real game example, Eternal Darkness and FZeroGX looks awesome on my plasma. It looks like Revolution will use similar resolution modes as those games. Madden and RS have been confirm to run in widescreen resolution mode.

 

[DemoCoder]

If you say so. Looks pretty crappy to me (I have GC+FZeroGX)

Guden, I am 35, 1 Wife, 1 Kid. Mortgage. 2 jobs. I still find time to game on both console and PC.

 

[pipo]

Guden, I am 35, 1 Wife, 1 Kid. Mortgage. 2 jobs. I still find time to game on both console and PC.

Only 1 Wife? Old-skool man.

 

[NANOTEC]

If you say so. Looks pretty crappy to me (I have GC+FZeroGX)

I wouldn't say it's carppy. Sure it's not Xbox360 graphics but then GC is not Wii. I think most people who plan on getting Wii will be perfectly happy with better than FZeroGX, better than RE4 visuals. With a new type of controller and lower price EDTV resolution will be good enough for most people. HD is so overated unless it's 1920x1080 and even then my tv is native 1366x768. There's a nice difference between 480p and 1080p, but there's very little difference between 480p and 720p.

 

[zRifle1z]

....

As for how "clueless" I am regarding 40yos that game, well, do you know where to find massive amounts of near middle-aged men (primarily) that buy consoles? Well, NOT for their kids I mean.

Other than on your precious bell curve, I mean.

Just because you can define an age interval doesn't mean there automatically appears people in the real world who fit to your newly constructed example! So bracket 18 to 35 game more than below 18. Whoopee-fuckin-doo! Are we going to check next if age 35 game more than age 18, I wonder what we'll find out! What about age 40 versus 13? I think you'll find your "bell curve" drops off pretty damn sharply around the upper limit you defined. It's not a standard normal distribution, that I can assure you. People aren't mindless statistics after all.

You'll see that many around 35 have wives, kids, jobs etc, while not as many below 35 do, and thus have more spare time for gaming. For age 40, it's even worse. Not only do they have all that the above do (only even more wives, kids in fact), those people were also born so they became teens before the computing revolution, and thus belong to the group of people who grew up when it was cool to NOT know how to use them (to paraphrase Kiefer Sutherland).

So so much for me being clueless. .......

I, for one, and the 50 to 60 + adults on my friends list beg to differ. There is also a good number of 30+ gamers whom I work with ($50 ESPN 2K5 football seasons were a blast). If the showing at Zero Hour was any indication we "older" gamers are aging gracefully

 

[OVERLORD]

The best thing to come out of that name was the Fark headline.

'tain't nothin' but wiitarded.

And yet I will still own one... But this will probably be the first console I buy and IMMEDIATELY want to deface. (And may have to hack the login screens or something. Heh...)

Heaven forbid they name GBA replacement Poo! You could have a Wii and Poo together. With a name like Wii I'm surprised Nintendo Urination wasn't considered.

 

[KimB]

I also read that the older gaming demographic is much more likely to spend that time with online games. That means mostly PC gaming (since console gaming is still in its fledgling days of online gaming).

 

[DuckThor Evil]

there's very little difference between 480p and 720p.

For you maybe, but in my eyes the difference is very big. I tried Kameo with 480p and it looked like crap compared to 720p

 

[KimB]

I think this will only be a strike against the system for multiplatform games. And even then, the different control setup may make up for visual deficiencies for some multiplatform games, such as FPS's.

 

[fearsomepirate]

At $2 it's already outrageously overpriced given depreciation/discount rate.

Good luck finding the original SMB cartridge for under $2 on Ebay. Depreciation/discount is market-determined. It's not exactly in the Ten Commandments or anything.

I'll tell you what took Madden to the next level. Online play.

You mean "current level." I'm talking about next-generation innovations, not current-gen ones.

I've said this before, but the barrier to entry for Madden for me is too high. I love football, but I have some sort of mental block when it comes to learning the control schemes for console football games. I can't do Madden, NFL 2K, or what have you. This control scheme sounds far more intuitive. If you aren't interested, fine, but that doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to be. I never asked what you wanted, because I already know (lots of megahertz and dot-products). You asked about "them," and I answered.

All you've done is listed reasons why the Wii doesn't appeal to you and people like you, but you asked why it appeals to other people. You need to learn how to distinguish between "you" and "other people." The fact that hardcore college-graduated gamers with high incomes are obsessed with expensive TVs doesn't apply to, say, me. Or other people like me. These people exist. As much as you may mock people who are either still in school (most 18-21 yos cannot afford HDTVs, because they're too busy sinking money into school, and most people can't afford 80" HDTVs anyway) or not obsessed enough with TV to drop the cash on an HDTV, we exist. Besides, if your hypothesis were correct, everyone would have ignored PS2 and Xbox in favor of high-res PC gaming. But guess what? On your average consumer's TV size (24 to 36 inches), 1080i and 720p just don't make the huge difference that they do on a ginormous 120" set.

And again, you may not like Nintendo's games, but see, you're not everyone, nor does everyone feel some obligation to conform to your tastes. Lots of gamers like Nintendo's games (incl many people who didn't buy Gamecube). If you want to know why other people (as evidenced by your usage of "they") might be interested in the Wii, that's one reason.

The person I am responding to can't afford an HD said nor an XB360 or PS3, but claims he is price sensitive to Nintendo Wii. So therefore, clearly, a larger proportion Wii buyers will people who are more price sensitive.

As are the majority of console gamers. You might notice that the vast, vast majority of PS2 and Xbox console sales in the USA came after price cuts. Wii is launching at a consumer-friendly price, rather that a "Only the hardcore need apply" price. Most people aren't interested in spending thousands of dollars on video games. The SD $149 Xbox and $129 PS2 are still selling briskly in the face of the $299+ X360 with its HDTV capabilities.

Nintendo is likely not terribly interested in who you think is stupid. They're probably more interested in what the majority of people will be willing to buy. They may have miscalculated, but you thinking that people not like you are just morons who don't have enough money (or don't spend enough on video games) doesn't really prove anything.

 

[NANOTEC]

For you maybe, but in my eyes the difference is very big. I tried Kameo with 480p and it looked like crap compared to 720p

You need to clarify the type of display you were using. Wthout that, it means nothing. Also does Kameo at 480p run at 480p native? Or is it downscaled from 720p by the Xbox? A crappy tv that has a crappy scaler can make SD look realy crappy but I'm sure you know that...

 

[darkblu]

I said in my first post that content matters, and that's why PS2 did so well.

sorry, but if you said that in your first post what was the purpose of that tirade that followed? the fact that you mind watching 480p content on your 120" screen? - how does that relate to the rest of the readers on this forum?

Wii will be competing with next-gen content in stores, side by side with PS3 and XB360 kiosks on big LCDs, while the Wii will not only be low-res, and probably aliased, but will pale in comparison to games like Gears of War.

it will? how do you know? or you meant 'it may' ? by your logic consoles should have gone extinct years ago, as soon as pc started to output resolutions > 480p. oh, wait, right, it was about the games...

Will the controller save it? To me, that's like asking if Guitar Hero, DDR, or the PS2 camera would influence someone to buy a console. It might. But I think it the honeymoon period could wear off real quick, with lots of awesome next-gen titles on PS3/XBL, and Wii stuck with paulty third party support, retro-gaming, and a gimmick titles.

if we take the present state as any indication of those 'lots of awesome next-gen titles' on the new HD consoles i'd already start to worry..

This could very well be Nintendo's "Dreamcast", ending their competiton in the console HW sector, relegating them to handheld and software.

just as the ps3 could be sony's last console, or the 360 ms', though in the latter case it's unlikely given ms' bodyweight.

Personally for me, the underpowered console and lack of HD is a huge negative. I have an incredibly large screen, and 480i/p content is going to look bad. The only way it would look good is if they have really good 4x+ antialiasing, but given the underpowered nature, I don't think so.

ok, that i understand. though the underpowered part is a bit arguable - what's an 'underpowered console' in the first place? relatively-less powered than the competition - yes, but does that make it 'underpowered'?

I'm looking at next-gen CPU power using software like NaturalMotion in real time. Will the Wii even be capable of running it?

it may not be. but it may be capable of running many other cool pieces of software.

Madden Wii is the wrong game for this controller. I'll tell you which game is perfect: Rockstar Ping-Pong(TableTennis) If they ported that, call me up.

i get the feeling you may be surprised of the originality of the games that will come out for the wii. luckily that's a matter of waiting and seeing.

 

[Fox5]

I said in my first post that content matters, and that's why PS2 did so well. Wii will be competing with next-gen content in stores, side by side with PS3 and XB360 kiosks on big LCDs, while the Wii will not only be low-res, and probably aliased, but will pale in comparison to games like Gears of War.

Will the controller save it? To me, that's like asking if Guitar Hero, DDR, or the PS2 camera would influence someone to buy a console. It might. But I think it the honeymoon period could wear off real quick, with lots of awesome next-gen titles on PS3/XBL, and Wii stuck with paulty third party support, retro-gaming, and a gimmick titles.

This could very well be Nintendo's "Dreamcast", ending their competiton in the console HW sector, relegating them to handheld and software.

Personally for me, the underpowered console and lack of HD is a huge negative. I have an incredibly large screen, and 480i/p content is going to look bad. The only way it would look good is if they have really good 4x+ antialiasing, but given the underpowered nature, I don't think so.

I'm looking at next-gen CPU power using software like NaturalMotion in real time. Will the Wii even be capable of running it?

Madden Wii is the wrong game for this controller. I'll tell you which game is perfect: Rockstar Ping-Pong(TableTennis) If they ported that, call me up.

Low hardware costs plus low development costs will keep Nintendo in the game.

Will the Rev controller have a rumble?

 

[pc999]

Democoder

You may have reason about some games just having diferent "trigers" but that may be enought for many people enjoy much more the games, some simple because they prefer this way, others because it is more simple, new gamers, others that can focus more in the gameplay...

Anyway in many games there will be no "trigers" like the table tennis or Red Steel, those games will be indeed diferent in gameplay terms.

Of curse many may be worst (and they agree as they will have the shell).

For HD the numbers still relatevely low (even in the US) plus the no gamers that Nintendo want make the numbers even lower. In japan I really dont know but I guess that the FHC is much more apreciated and in Europe must people will only buy a new TV when their current one brokke so it should take a lot till be a significant number as mamy dont care(eg me and my friends that are hardcore gamers dont care about HD).

I would also love a lot of power in the Wii (still we dont know anything about Wii performance) but I do prefer a cheap console and cheap games.

Plus I dont know if it is really that underpowered GC can do this and after all 3x Gekko should be more or less equivalent to 2,1Ghz+ P3 and with that kind of power you already can run games like COD2/Q4/fear if I understud this (17) well even GoW is only using 5,5 Gflops that is ~3xGekko (all of them have lower MR than 2Ghz for a P4) meybe if the GPU get a equivalent bost it will look like that too (eg 3xSC3).

Yes I would prefer more, much more power but if the price is low enought then I am ok with that.

In the end it will be only a matter of personal preferences.

 

[DemoCoder]

I also read that the older gaming demographic is much more likely to spend that time with online games. That means mostly PC gaming (since console gaming is still in its fledgling days of online gaming).

Well, I play Burnout Revenge on XBL (360) all the time, and I would say that the majority of the people I play with are a) older than 30 and b) British.

 

[DemoCoder]

Good luck finding the original SMB cartridge for under $2 on Ebay. Depreciation/discount is market-determined. It's not exactly in the Ten Commandments or anything.

I can find it alot easier as a downloadable ROM. In fact, you can download "allrom" archives online that contain almost every ROM ever published for Nintendo, SNES, SEGA, N64, etc. Retrogaming heretofore has been piracy, plain and simple, except for some abandonware titles. Yea, piracy=bad, but it's publishers fault for not making retrogaming legal and cheap. Publishers should feel lucky that they can get some residual resells on 20 year old stuff. But at $2? Maybe 25 cents to play for one day or something, and more to buy it.

Are there really that many people who want to spend $2 to buy Zelda yet again, and play it on next-gen hardware? Retrogaming wears off real quick.

Plus, is Nintendo even doing anything differently with their retrogaming? I can play multiplayer retrogames *online* with some emulators.

My XBOX1 is modchiped, and I have allroms for NES, SNES, SEGA, NeoGeo, N64, and arcade titles. That pretty much wipes out any interest I could ever have in retrogaming on the Wii.

You mean "current level." I'm talking about next-generation innovations, not current-gen ones.

Sorry, but waving the controller as a trigger to kick the ball is not next-gen. It's old gen. Been there, done that. Motion activated arcade games in Las Vegas. Very lame. In addition, boxing games where you physically make punching motions are lame, as are fire fighting games where you hold a "hose", as is Tekken "air punching". Some games translate to the controller, but those games are likely not written yet.

Madden Wii looks like a port with the controller shoehorned in. Like I said, a true "Wii sports game", would integrate the controller's continuous 3D motion, ala Table Tennis game, where the extract position and orientation of the controller could be translated into the onscreen "Paddle", you could then direct the ball, put topspin, underspin, etc via the way you move the controller.

That's something you could never accomplish with a joypad controller. But triggers or gun rotations that add nothing to game play are pointless. They increase your muscle fatigue but add no benefit to control over the game.

I've said this before, but the barrier to entry for Madden for me is too high. I love football, but I have some sort of mental block when it comes to learning the control schemes for console football games.

You think you won't have to learn a control scheme? In every system with gesture activation I've ever seen, you have to "learn" the right gesture to activate the right trigger. What's the logical motion for "tackle" for example? How about handing off the ball from QB to running back? Doesn't seem that obvious to me.

 

[DemoCoder]

For HD the numbers still relatevely low (even in the US) plus the no gamers that Nintendo want make the numbers even lower.

Relative to the total # of TV sets in the US, yes. But people who own HDTVs are much more likely to buy hardware that provides better picture quality. 10% of US households now have an HDTV, and 20% indictate an intent to purchase within a year. By 2008, 60 million US households are predicted to have one. Right now, there are between 11-15 million HDTVs in the US. The average owner is much more likely to purchase equipment that supplements his HDTV (HD satellite/cable, HD tuners, sound system, HD-DVD/BR-DVD,
hi-def game consoles) If they purchase a PS/2, I guarantee it's only to play a "killer game" that they always wanted (GT4, GoW, SoTC, etc), because the PS2 looks *HORRIBLE* on HDTV.

The attach rate for HDTV wrt to consoles is much higher than for SDTV. Microsoft sold out millions of XB360s in expensive $600-1000 bundles. I guarantee you that the majority of those people were not plugging them into a 25-32" SDTV.