Restoring the Imperial Presidency

[Natoma]

I thought this was a FANTASTIC read comparing and contrasting the Nixon and the current Bush Administration. Given everything that has gone on in this country since January 2000, it really makes a whole lot of historical sense.

Link here.

 

[DemoCoder]

I thought it was Hugo Chavez who is the new Richard Nixon.

 

[kyleb]

Current Terror Level:

collect them all

 

[DemoCoder]

The german version of this would be to keep an eye out for people who play Counter-Strike or C&C.

 

[Vince]

The german version of this would be to keep an eye out for people who play Counter-Strike or C&C.

Whats even funnier is that I was watching TV the other day and they were reporting that Germany's GIG9 Counter-Terrorist unit raided a suspected terrorist stronghold and retrieved a copy of "CivilizationII" - Appearently between the "bloodlust/no spaceships" option and the fact that you can't win while having allies is just too much.

 

[epicstruggle]

Hey natoma, let me ask you a question how would you plan to capture terrorist cells that have infultrated the US. would you place poster that said "If your a terrorist can you please come and see us. FBI" If you want to find these people you have to go where they are. I wish we would start racial profilling again. Its not PC at the moment. But hey Ill guarantee you that the next terrorist act will come from a person who is muslim and either comes from the middle east or africa and not from the swiss, or french, or some one who is jew. Lets be realistic, and focus our attention where its needed.

later,

 

[Natoma]

Hey natoma, let me ask you a question how would you plan to capture terrorist cells that have infultrated the US. would you place poster that said "If your a terrorist can you please come and see us. FBI" If you want to find these people you have to go where they are. I wish we would start racial profilling again. Its not PC at the moment. But hey Ill guarantee you that the next terrorist act will come from a person who is muslim and either comes from the middle east or africa and not from the swiss, or french, or some one who is jew. Lets be realistic, and focus our attention where its needed.

later,

More and more evidence coming out of the 9/11 congressional investigations have shown, epic, that the FBI and CIA had more than enough information *before* the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act to prevent 9/11. They just didn't sift through the information correctly, or in time.

How is the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act supposed to improve that process when all it does is dump even *more* information into their hands, but does nothing to increase the efficacy of their data mining?

p.s.: As has been shown, terrorists and those associated with them need not be muslim, or from the middle east.

Zacarious Moussaio (sp?), John Walker Lindh, and allegedly Jose Padilla for example... African Frenchman, White American, and Hispanic American. Not to mention all of the other ones we haven't heard about. How do you profile that?

[EDIT]The guy who tossed the grenade into the tents of the 101st Airborne, killing one and injuring a few others was american too. go figure.

Also, having been the victim of racial profiling myself, I can tell you how utterly distasteful it is. There is such a thing in this country as innocent until proven guilty no? Racial Profiling in any form is wrong, and should be avoided at all costs.

And there is a difference between someone saying "We're looking for a white male, 6ft tall, who committed this crime" and saying "We're looking for all muslims" or "We're looking for all people of middle eastern descent."[/EDIT]

"Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security" -- Benjamin Franklin

 

[epicstruggle]

natoma, i dont disagree that there was info on 9/11 that could have warned the fbi/cia of the attack. but you do realize that there was so much info to sift through that they had no chance to get through it all. but if you infiltrate an organization, you actually have someone there to see/talk/hear whats going on instead of reports/phone conversations/emails to go through one by one.

BTW i said the next terrorist act. not the next potential terrorist act. I dont think any rational person would expect a catholic terrorist, or a hindu terrorist to act in the US. but i hope you do understand that the next act of terrorism will occur because of a islamic fundamentalist. No doubt about it. all the people you mentioned where followers of islam (even though they missed the point of islam which is peace.)

later,

 

[Natoma]

natoma, i dont disagree that there was info on 9/11 that could have warned the fbi/cia of the attack. but you do realize that there was so much info to sift through that they had no chance to get through it all. but if you infiltrate an organization, you actually have someone there to see/talk/hear whats going on instead of reports/phone conversations/emails to go through one by one.

What would you suggest? Infiltrate every mosque in the nation? There are over 1 Billion practitioners of Islam in the world. There are a few thousand muslim terrorists in the world. Maybe a few hundred of those in this country.

Why don't we take it a step further? Instead of merely infiltrating the Mosques as you suggest, why don't we round up all Muslims into internment camps? We'd be sure to get the very few terrorists among them now wouldn't we? Oh wait, that was already done. See WWII, Japanese.

BTW i said the next terrorist act. not the next potential terrorist act. I dont think any rational person would expect a catholic terrorist, or a hindu terrorist to act in the US. but i hope you do understand that the next act of terrorism will occur because of a islamic fundamentalist. No doubt about it. all the people you mentioned where followers of islam (even though they missed the point of islam which is peace.)

later,

Fine. Timothy McVeigh was a practicing christian. The Unabomber was too. Charles Manson anyone? Does that mean that in order to stop further attacks/murders/serial killers/psychotics on US soil, the FBI and CIA should profile the vast majority of white, male, christians in this country?

 

[Silent_One]

Why don't we take it a step further? Instead of merely infiltrating the Mosques as you suggest, why don't we round up all Muslims into internment camps? We'd be sure to get the very few terrorists among them now wouldn't we? Oh wait, that was already done. See WWII, Japanese

Has anyone suggested we do that?

 

[Natoma]

Why don't we take it a step further? Instead of merely infiltrating the Mosques as you suggest, why don't we round up all Muslims into internment camps? We'd be sure to get the very few terrorists among them now wouldn't we? Oh wait, that was already done. See WWII, Japanese

Has anyone suggested we do that?

The objective was the point of the foolishness of racial profiling. I provided an extreme example of our not too distant past in which racial profiling was followed to its logical end in a time of "war."

 

[epicstruggle]

natoma i did not say at any point in my post that we need to round up every muslim and put them in an interment camp.I feel deeply offended that you suggest that i implied that. The article in question said that the bush admin. wanted more power to wire tap and spy on certain groups of people. My point was that they should be allowed to.

What is the problem of the cia/fbi recruiting muslims to keep check on their members in their mosques. They should do this on their own anyways after the current tensions. You recruit one or two per mosque, I believe this is illegal and that the governments wants to change laws to allow this. I see no problem with that.

I dont know whether you understand the word i put in these post. But i said the the next terrorist act will be done by muslim extremist. technically speaking the snipers who terrorized the washington area where muslims and some considered what happened a terrorist act.

If Las Vegas had odds on who would commit the next terrorist act, who do you think would top their list. I say pay more attention to those at the top of that list. And guess what that will be muslim extremist.

ps natoma, please read my post carefully and dont imply things i did not say. My parent lived under apartheid (and were affected by it) and I do not believe in quaranting(sp?) people based on race or religion. Please never imply that I said that.

later.

 

[Natoma]

Uhm, epic, I never said that you were implying that we should intern muslims. I said, why don't we take what you're proposing to the next logical step? Why stop with simply profiling and planting 'seeds' in every mosque in the country?

Why don't we just round them up like our country did to the japanese? Nowhere did I say that was your idea. But I hope you see that what you're suggesting can easily morph into something even more insidious than your current idea.

 

[epicstruggle]

what i said was that the fbi/cia shoujld be allowed to recruit informers in the mosques in this country and other countries. please tell me what the problem is.

later,

 

[Natoma]

what i said was that the fbi/cia shoujld be allowed to recruit informers in the mosques in this country and other countries. please tell me what the problem is.

later,

The law you're suggesting should not be just about mosques. It should include places for all forms of worship imo. Terrorism is not simply confined to Islam. There are Hindu Terrorists (if you're pakistani that is). There are Christian Terrorists (IRA anyone?). etc etc etc. So if we're going to profile one group because of their religious beliefs, we should profile them all.

Terrorism can come from anywhere. White Militant Christian Separatists are building caches of weapons in the mountains and preach extremism. They could easily cause a lot of problems in this country. Shouldn't we go after them too?

 

[Silent_One]

The law you're suggesting should not be just about mosques. It should include places for all forms of worship imo.

Agreed, so lets do it Now it would be wise to watch out for thouse most likely to wish us harm. Muslims come to mind. And yes so do White Militant Christian Separatists. The IRA comes to mind also. Ect.....Ect....Ect....I hope the FBI keeps an eye out for all the groups out there