R360 and RV360

[Mariner]

According to The Inquirer, R360 and RV360 have taped out.

I assume that this R360 is the speedbumped chip to take on the NV35 which Dave has mentioned. I'm surprised, however, to hear about an RV360 as initial previews of the RV350 have shown it to be a pretty good chip. Is this respin to improve poor yields or improve performance over the updated NV31 we've heard about.

Any one know anything about this?

Obviously: Inquirer, pinch of salt, etc. etc. blah...

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

 

[Pete]

So is this similar to nV's respun NV31, as Anand showed--for clock-speed purposes only?

Perhaps ATi snuck some Doom3 optimizations in there as well?

 

[MuFu]

Any one know anything about this?

Only that ATi were talking about using the respin option for both the high-end and mainstream sectors.

Since NV36 is taping out this month too it's not suprising to hear of an "RV360" tapeout, especially given the 5600 Ultra's strong showing in Doom 3.

MuFu.

 

[surfhurleydude]

Perhaps ATi snuck some Doom3 optimizations in there as well?

Doubt it...Shadow optimizations were already added in the R350.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Well ATI and nVidia...just keep taping out the competitive chips! Tough on your business, I know, but good for me.

I'm not sure if I expect the RV360 to be launched at the same time as the R360 though...makes more sense to me for the RV360 to not hit the streets until perhaps around comdex.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Doubt it...Shadow optimizations were already added in the R350.

But I don't think those optimizations are in the RV350. (So perhaps the RV360 might get them.)

 

[Mariner]

I'm pretty sure that RV350 included the same Hyper-Z optimisations as the R350, so I wouldn't think that this is the change. In fact, according to
Anand, the RV350 actually has superior Hyper-Z to the R350 (Hyper-Z III++, so to speak ):

Anand RV350 preview

I suppose a respin to take the base clock to 500MHz up from 400MHz would be pretty worthwhile. I wonder how much the clock of the NV31 respin will increase by? Up to 450MHz, perhaps?

The question with any such RV360 is what the hell would they call the card? Radeon 9650?!? :?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I'm pretty sure that RV350 included the same Hyper-Z optimisations as the R350, so I wouldn't think that this is the change.

Silly Mariner...learn to use B3D as your technical source!

http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/rv350/

RV350 actually lacks the Heirarchical-Z component of HyperZ completely. And the "stencil optimization" (IIRC) in R350 is to have heirarchical-z work correctly and simultaneously with stencil buffer.

Having said that, adding Heirarchical Z to RV360 in the first place might be a bit too drastic for a re-spin (and too much die space for a part in the intended price/performance bracket.)

So I'm inclined to believe it's a respin to raise the core clocks.

 

[Mariner]

Bah!

I went looking for information on ATI's site without any joy and Anandtech is just above Beyond3D in my Bookmarks list, so that's my excuse.

 

[MuFu]

If these are just respins then the codenames only make sense in terms of roadmapping. Might just be the Inq "assuming" things, as they have been known to do in the past.

MuFu.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Heh...

And I've been wondering about the name too....ATI is running out of numbers

 

[MuFu]

Well I presume Radeon 9900 Pro for the high-end part, assuming Loci is marketed as something other than a 9x00 product (almost a given, IMO).

As for the low-end, the performance/naming scheme goes the other way: 9600=>9500=>9400.

MuFu.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Well I presume Radeon 9900 Pro for the high-end part, assuming Loci is marketed as something other than a 9x00 product (almost a given, IMO).

As for the low-end, the performance/naming scheme goes the other way: 9600=>9500=>9400.

MuFu.

Lol...

It is possible that the RV360 is planned to be released simultaneously with Loci, and not with the assumed 9900 Pro (Ati tends to sits on their lower-end parts a bit longer.) If that's the case, they may market the RV360 with the same designation as the Loci.

Similar to what ATI did with the Radeon 9000 / Radeon 9700 launch.

 

[MuFu]

That's a good point, but I think that slot is occupied by RV400. Would make more sense since we'll probably come to know Loci as R400 or R420, "officially".

MuFu.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Do you know if Loci is currently slated for later in '03, or for early '04? (I assume it's one of those!)

 

[MuFu]

Well I thought late Fall (Nov - same time as NV40), but that is perhaps looking less and less likely now. I don't see how they can afford to miss that timeframe though - at least in terms of an announcement. They'll have exhausted pretty much every practical option as far as the current ASICs go by then.

I dunno... hard to call without knowing whether they know about nV's plans for NV40, lol. I assume they do, although what was quite worrying was a certain ATi somebody's reaction when I said they were due to launch it at Comdex... he seemed a little suprised that it was coming so soon! Hopefully that isn't a reflection on the company as a whole.

MuFu.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Before I was given the heads up about the R350 respin I had already heard about this possability elsewhere as well as "some tweaks to RV350", so I think there could actuall be some legs to this story.

One of the things that we are seeing from both manufactuers is the fact that they are quickly changing because TSMC is making better revisions of the 130nm process now that it maturing - AFAIK there were very few chip differences between the early RV350's that could only run at 375MHz to the new ones that can run up to 500+, certianly the change did not warrant a revision number and it was siad that it was all due to process changes. I suspect that a tweaked RV350 could occur to ensure that they hit more stably at 500MHz and this will see them out until RV400.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I dunno... hard to call without knowing whether they know about nV's plans for NV40, lol. I assume they do, although what was quite worrying was a certain ATi somebody's reaction when I said they were due to launch it at Comdex... he seemed a little suprised that it was coming so soon! Hopefully that isn't a reflection on the company as a whole.

It's a very odd time in the industry in terms of timing.

ATI and nVidia seem to both be on "sort-of-6-month" cycles. (6 months between new products generally, even if they are just tweaks / revisions / clock changes from previous products.

However, they also seem to be out of phase by 3 months. The confusion and uncertainty is also compounded by varying times between "launch" and "ship", so it's very difficult to pin down exactly what cycles ATI and nVidia are on...

(Discreipt Chip level products)

Summer '02: Radeon R300/RV250 launched, starts ships in a month
Fall '02: NV30 launched, never "really" ships.
Winter '03: NV31/34 and R350/RV350/RV280 launch, ship within a couple months.
Spring '03: NV35 Launched, ships in a couple(?) months
Summer '03: R360 Launches...ships? RV360 launches?
Fall '03: NV40 launches....ships?
Winter '04: Loci launches? RV400 Launches?

 

[MuFu]

"R360" vs. NV40 is the interesting one, IMO. Dammit... to know more about NV40! Might have to go and do some morally questionable things again...

MuFu.