Questions about PS2

[Shifty Geezer]

Ok, but still I can get better both of them. So I'll play both.

Did it because of lack of fillrate?

Most likely.

Also great example is The Lord of the Rings The Return of the King. In level there Aragorn goes to speak with ghosts he goes through cave and in some places there is a lot of fog. I remember on PS2 there was just the same frame rate as in other places of the game. But on my old PC frame rate drops to some 10fps. This was amazing win of PS2. My PC was Athlon 1,4 Ghz, Radeon 9600 Pro with 256 Mb and 1Gb of RAM.

Yep. PS2 had some amazing particles and transparency. PS3 was a disappointment in some regards, with visuals that could look plainer to my eyes. Plus PS2's shadows were crisp and not pixelated.

But was it used in real games?

Yes! Otherwise you wouldn't have any interesting efects and all polys would just be lit+textured.

And wasn't PS2 capably draw so many polygons what it was possible to do it?

Sorry, don't understand the question.

And one more question did multi pass rendering required twice geometry calculations with two passes and four times more geometry calculations with four passes?

I can't answer that one. In theory the results of the geometry processing could be reused, but the lack of RAM may have meant that wasn't possible. But I may even be wrong on that.

Yes, I've heard about GT. Very interesting but also I don't understand why they can't do similar effect in GT 5-6 with shaders. There wasn't resources of power on PS3 anymore?

Yes, heat haze can be done in a post process effect. Last gen got very good with post process shaders, and these are extremely versatile and efficient.

 

[Liandry]

Yep. PS2 had some amazing particles and transparency. PS3 was a disappointment in some regards, with visuals that could look plainer to my eyes.

Not only PS3 but PS4 also. Don't see games on PS4 with lots of smoke, dust, fog etc. And don't think there will be some of them.

Plus PS2's shadows were crisp and not pixelated.

Also interesting question, how it was possible on PS2. Because I've heard there was some problems with shadow support on PS2, or this isn't right info?

Sorry, don't understand the question.

I mean if screen re-draw required also geometry re-draw, was PS2 capable to push enough polygons?

Yes, heat haze can be done in a post process effect. Last gen got very good with post process shaders, and these are extremely versatile and efficient.

But this effect still wasn't dono on PS3 in GT 5-6. And there was similar effect in GTA San Andreas, and I don't remember something like it in GTA 4-5, so it's interesting why.

 

[milk]

I belive Ps3 and ps4 do have better total fillrate than ps2, but because they usually target higher resolutions, the fillrate per screen pixel can be lower.

Sent from my LG-D385 using Tapatalk

 

[Liandry]

I belive Ps3 and ps4 do have better total fillrate than ps2, but because they usually target higher resolutions, the fillrate per screen pixel can be lower.

Maybe you are right. PS2 have 2.4 Gpixel fillrate, PS3 4.4 Gpixel so it's almost two times more, but resolution in games is a lot higher.

 

[function]

Additionally, half the PS2 pixel pipelines didn't support texturing, but OTOH, PS3 could be bandwidth limited for fill in some situations.

Then again, PS3 supported MSAA, meaning that area coverage of fragments could be more accurate. But that could also increase the bandwidth required...

 

[Gitaroo]

funny that you guys are disappointed with PS3 particles and transparencies effects compare to PS2, but ZOE2, the PS2 games with the most insane amount of particles and transparencies effects run like a dream on PS3.

 

[Liandry]

Additionally, half the PS2 pixel pipelines didn't support texturing, but OTOH, PS3 could be bandwidth limited for fill in some situations.

Then again, PS3 supported MSAA, meaning that area coverage of fragments could be more accurate. But that could also increase the bandwidth required...

Of course all this in count. I just want to say that PS3 should have more fillrate because of higher resolution and MSAA.

funny that you guys are disappointed with PS3 particles and transparencies effects compare to PS2, but ZOE2, the PS2 games with the most insane amount of particles and transparencies effects run like a dream on PS3.

Yes thats great, but maybe just a lot of work were done on PS3. Because Silent Hill HD on PS3 had not great fog from PS2 version.

 

[Liandry]

I just found this article about ZOE2 and there said that PS3 version was worse than original. It become playable only after patch.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-konami-remade-zoe-hd-remaster

 

[Egmon83]

Not only playable; vastly superior!
http://hexadrive.sblo.jp/article/71326168.html

The biggest patch increase I ever saw, no hyperbole. They improved on every aspect, instead of just framerate and a little bit of resolution increase

 

[Gitaroo]

I just found this article about ZOE2 and there said that PS3 version was worse than original. It become playable only after patch.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-konami-remade-zoe-hd-remaster

1280x1080 near 60fps at all times and all effects rendered at full res is a trillion times better than ps2 version ever was.

 

[Liandry]

1280x1080 near 60fps at all times and all effects rendered at full res is a trillion times better than ps2 version ever was.

Yes, but only after patch, befor it game was unplayable.

 

[London Geezer]

The point is that it wasn't a bad port because somehow PS2 had 'more grunt' than PS3 (or PS4, as I've seen suggested on here, which is even more ridiculous). It was originally a bad port due to a less than ideal optimisation. This was then fixed with the patch.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, PS3 can render as many lovely particles as PS2 when targeting PS2 level graphics. In PS3 games with PS3 level graphics, there wasn't enough left over for fancy fill-rate heavy particle effects, and limited success in using shaders instead. So regards experiences of the consoles, PS3 had less particle/effect wowness in games by and large (at least in my experience), but more shader and surface illumination wowness.

 

[Liandry]

The point is that it wasn't a bad port because somehow PS2 had 'more grunt' than PS3 (or PS4, as I've seen suggested on here, which is even more ridiculous). It was originally a bad port due to a less than ideal optimisation. This was then fixed with the patch.

The point is what PS3 wasn't powerful enough (or better to say capable enough) to run just raw port from PS2. Because of that also there wasn't software emulator of PS2 on PS3. Xbox 360 could run original Xbox games. Most of them.

Yes, PS3 can render as many lovely particles as PS2 when targeting PS2 level graphics. In PS3 games with PS3 level graphics, there wasn't enough left over for fancy fill-rate heavy particle effects, and limited success in using shaders instead. So regards experiences of the consoles, PS3 had less particle/effect wowness in games by and large (at least in my experience), but more shader and surface illumination wowness.

Very true words! The lack of great smoke, dust, fog effects on 7th gen of consoles wasn't good. I haven't played much games on PS2 yet, but I saw that great effects. Before it I've already played Xbox 360 games, so I was surprised when I played PS2 games with those effects. Then I thought that there will be some better effects in newer Xbox 360 and PS3 games, but there wasn't.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The point is what PS3 wasn't powerful enough (or better to say capable enough) to run just raw port from PS2.

Very different architectures. You can have crazy powerful hardware unable to emulate a far simpler console because of differences in hardware. You may want to look up emulation. When it comes to what a console can do, XB360 and PS3 can run PS2's games in better quality, of course, when the same game is made to fit the hardware. See all the remakes for proof of this (eg. SotC).

Very true words! The lack of great smoke, dust, fog effects on 7th gen of consoles wasn't good. I haven't played much games on PS2 yet, but I saw that great effects. Before it I've already played Xbox 360 games, so I was surprised when I played PS2 games with those effects. Then I thought that there will be some better effects in newer Xbox 360 and PS3 games, but there wasn't.

It's more a change in priorities. If someone wanted to make a PS2 style game, they could, but it'd mean finding ways to use the hardware. eg. Writing fancy smoke shaders instead of just slapping down loads of smoke particles. See KZ2. But the games took a different focus primairly based around what the hardware is naturaly suited for, in exactly the same way PS2 games did. That is, PS2 games could have used the overdraw for simulating more shader and surface effects, but devs instead preferred to use it for spot effects because that was a more naturally application, and it worked well.

The results don't really say anything about console power. More about hardware focus. PS2 was an exceptional (as in exception, not superior as per the typical connotation) design with peculiar strengths and weaknesses, and a programming model to match.

Regards shadows, PS2 used stencil shadows and shadow volumes, rendering shadows using vector geometry without the use of fixed-res shaodw maps. This was ideal as the shadow volumes are the simpest type of geometry (unlit triangles) which suited PS2's limited but faster triangle powers. The shift to shadow maps was another jarring change in the following gen IMO.

 

[Liandry]

It's more a change in priorities. If someone wanted to make a PS2 style game, they could, but it'd mean finding ways to use the hardware. eg. Writing fancy smoke shaders instead of just slapping down loads of smoke particles. See KZ2. But the games took a different focus primairly based around what the hardware is naturaly suited for, in exactly the same way PS2 games did. That is, PS2 games could have used the overdraw for simulating more shader and surface effects, but devs instead preferred to use it for spot effects because that was a more naturally application, and it worked well.

True, but in overall I better prefer PS2 graphics, because of more balance between different parts of game graphics (polygons, lighting, particles etc.).

Regards shadows, PS2 used stencil shadows and shadow volumes, rendering shadows using vector geometry without the use of fixed-res shaodw maps. This was ideal as the shadow volumes are the simpest type of geometry (unlit triangles) which suited PS2's limited but faster triangle powers. The shift to shadow maps was another jarring change in the following gen IMO.

Shadows also sometimes looked better on PS2, also because of more balanced graphics in PS2 games. I personaly was shocked when saw shadows from fence in Division on PS4. That was absolutely terrible result. And there is great example on PS2 Matrix Path of Neo, or Splinter Cell games.

 

[Gitaroo]

Yes, but only after patch, befor it game was unplayable.

It was ported by an incompetent dev, what matters is a beautiful trillion times better existed, who gives a crap about how it used to run. Best version exist is already enough to proof that ps3 can handle the best from ps2.

 

[Liandry]

It was ported by an incompetent dev, what matters is a beautiful trillion times better existed, who gives a crap about how it used to run. Best version exist is already enough to proof that ps3 can handle the best from ps2.

Agree.
Yesterday played first Splinter Cell. Good graphics for hat time, and absolutely amazing shadows for PS2. Probably one of the best on PS2. Maybe someone can name oher games with great shadows on PS2?

 

[function]

Maybe someone can name oher games with great shadows on PS2?

Not this:

 

[HMBR]

Agree.
Yesterday played first Splinter Cell. Good graphics for hat time, and absolutely amazing shadows for PS2. Probably one of the best on PS2. Maybe someone can name oher games with great shadows on PS2?

you should play the Xbox version, which is a very weak piece of hardware compared to the PS3 but showed huge advantages on the game you mentioned compared to the PS2 version your are impressed with