Pushing the Envelope

[TheChefO]

What's else to talk about? It had pretty CG? Other than that there was nothing that interesting.

GREAT cinematography too.

As I said - To push the envelope is not to push every facet at once but to merely do something that has not been done before and improve in that something by a noticable degree. That could be one thing or a cumulative sum of things that are not huge improvements over others on an individual basis but when combined they push the genre forward.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

bI think Motorstorm pushed the envelope as well into some extend. There is a reason why we didnt put NFS:Carpon and PGR3 in that list. And thats because they only improved and made even gorgeous the previous effects.

From what I ve seen so far in Motorstorm although the concept isnt any different from previous games, again its the execution in which it pushes the envelope. The AI is trying to resemble as much as possible that of a human. For example, certain types of car may team up to take out a certain smaller type of car. They will also mock you.

Furthermore, the revengful attitude seems more apparent in this one.

1. Never again put NFS:Carbon in the same sentence as PGR3. PGR3 is a quality title, Carbon is typical EA.

2. PGR3 is a semi-realistic street racer, in real life, no humans are going to team up on you and try to take you out when your all driving $300,000 supercars. Nobody will start doing a PIT manuvre with their bentley


PGR3 AI thought, is one of the best racing AI's out there.

3. Some NASCAR games had AI that would ram into you and try to take you out, it wasnt very sophisticated but it was there.

4. Interstate '76 and Carmageddon both had AI that would "take you out", in 1997. Hardly anything revolutionizing

Its simply progress, its not like the team behind motorstorm have made some crazy AI algorythm thats revolutionizing the way we think of gameplay.

And another thing that was really absent previously from other racing games was the ground deformation playing part in the game. Previously it was just a visual treat. Now not only does it looks better than ever, with wet mud deforming and looking as realistic as never before, and different (for once it looks like real wet mad deforming and concentrading water in its bumbs) it affects the handling. Heavy cars deform more than smaller cars the ground and accordingly the handling is supposed to be affected.

So it may not have pushed the envelope greatly enough to make you go WILD, but it pushed it

We have had the technology to do ground deformation in games for quite a while, certain rally titles have had this for a good while aswell. It didnt do anything for gameplay, but it was there, visually (not as good ofcourse). I would say that is simply progress not pushing the envelope...

Of course there are different definitions of pushing the envelope, thats the problem here.

For me, the pushing the envelope is doing something that will in some way change how games are made, played or thought at.

For example, i would say that DOOM1 pushed the envelope, being the first FPS and all that. DOOM 3 just had a new graphics engine.. i would just call that progress. Otherwise, i dont see how you can say that PGR3 is not pushing the envelope, and claim Motorstorm does. Neither does something we havent seen before, but slightly upgraded due to technology advances.

If you can claim that as something else than progress, then i guess every game in the world that does something better than whats allready out there is pushing the envelope.

 

[Nesh]

I disagree that good execution is a way to push the envelop, and that's the problem. Are definitions of what is pushing the envelop is very different.

Possibly. But then if a dev pushes the envelope because something new appeared that will help him do it then, he isnt actually pushing it. He is shifting to new things that open new possibilities.

For me and possibly for the others in this thread "pushing the envelope" means: Taking whats already available, and when you thaught you have seen everything and the limits of it, use it in a way that either surpasses what was thought possible in quality or use it in a way that nobody else thought of.

Shadow of Colossus for example pushed the envelope so much (for me at least) that the enjoyment I got from that game's art direction and original gameplay made me forget I was actually playing a PS2 game.

the surface of this game will only tell you: "bah far cry had as big enviroments, bah even a first gen XBOX game has better textures than this, pfff fur has been done in Blinx already" etc etc.
But the game as a whole it surpassed what was thought possible with a given hardware, gave a whole meaning to exploration and AI interactivity, and the animation gave the impression that the characters had a life of their own. The gameplay experience itself had a completely different experience. And what was so special in it? Someone will tell you that Lara could hang of things in Tomb Raider , swords have been used since the first appearance of VG, and we have already faught against gicantic etc.
Again its a very wrong way to look at it.

 

[Skrying]

Shadow of the Colossus is a game I'd consider that pushes the envelop.

 

[Nesh]

1. Never again put NFS:Carbon in the same sentence as PGR3. PGR3 is a quality title, Carbon is typical EA.

2. PGR3 is a semi-realistic street racer, in real life, no humans are going to team up on you and try to take you out when your all driving $300,000 supercars. Nobody will start doing a PIT manuvre with their bentley


PGR3 AI thought, is one of the best racing AI's out there.

3. Some NASCAR games had AI that would ram into you and try to take you out, it wasnt very sophisticated but it was there.

4. Interstate '76 and Carmageddon both had AI that would "take you out", in 1997. Hardly anything revolutionizing

I agree about the NFS thing.

But you repeat what I already said about the AI. Havent I already said that revengful AI was used previously as well?

We have had the technology to do ground deformation in games for quite a while, certain rally titles have had this for a good while aswell. It didnt do anything for gameplay, but it was there, visually (not as good ofcourse). I would say that is simply progress not pushing the envelope...

Of course there are different definitions of pushing the envelope, thats the problem here.

Havent I already stated that visually mud deformation was already used?

For me, the pushing the envelope is doing something that will in some way change how games are made, played or thought at.

For example, i would say that DOOM1 pushed the envelope, being the first FPS and all that. DOOM 3 just had a new graphics engine.. i would just call that progress. Otherwise, i dont see how you can say that PGR3 is not pushing the envelope, and claim Motorstorm does. Neither does something we havent seen before, but slightly upgraded due to technology advances.

If you can claim that as something else than progress, then i guess every game in the world that does something better than whats allready out there is pushing the envelope.

I agree. But I tend to describe two things as pushing the envelope. One being the execution of what was already given and second technical changes.

I feel like we are actually underestimating the work and effort of some developers trying to "push the envelope" with what is already there. For example Psygnosis with the original Wipeout and Capcom with Viewtiful Joe (although technically wasnt anything special)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Progress is not to be mixed with Pushing the Envelop, very different. In fact, most games these days are nice progression over their predecessors, but they are not pushing the envelop in my opinion.

But pushing the envelop is progress. The 'envelope' is the range of performance from low to high. Pushing the envelope is setting a new high. The four minute mile was once the top end of the envelope for track running. Once it was broken, Bannister pushed the envelope to include shorter times. Subsequent athletes extended the envelope moreso, producing an average that is faster than before. As the high-points go up, so does the average, and the whole field progresses.

In game terms, pushing the envelope is setting a new high standard. Whether that's for AI, a rendering technique, an optimisation, a particle engine...whatever feature, if a game sets a new high standard in a field, it's pushing the envelope for that field.

The games that I've found that really make a difference and are truly innovative tend to be small and free games, and I personally can't recall much of anything that I would consider pushing the envelop, I feel such a reference is rare.

But they're not pushing the envelope. They're either creating new genres/sub genres or innovating or inventing. That's not the same as setting a new standard or growing a field. Populous was a whole new genre. Populous 2 pushed the envelope for what a god game could achieve. Elite was a whole new genre. Frontier pushed the envelope in expansive 3D worlds.

You seem to be mixing up setting new standards in existing fields with inventing whole new areas!

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Gollum was a new approach in CG characters, because this was the first time to have an actor's performance and his implementation of the role to become the driving force for the 3D work. For example, Andy Serkis came up with the ideas of having Gollum walk on all fours and generally act like a drug addict on withdraval. His experience as an actor was also important, because animators have very different backgrounds and they're usually more interested in creating lifelike motion, so the higher levels of acting were missed in CG characters most of the time.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Motorstorm
MGS4
Naughty dogs new game
Crysis
Spore
Gears of War

I would certainly add Mass Effect and Bioshock to this list.

I can agree with GoW pushing the envolope as it is truly a step forward in the evolution of the shooter imo. I don't know about some of the others...

 

[TheChefO]

I would certainly add Mass Effect and Bioshock to this list.

I can agree with GoW pushing the envolope as it is truly a step forward in the evolution of the shooter imo. I don't know about some of the others...

In what way are these titles pushing the envelope? I'm not arguing against the thought just curious as to what they are specifically bringing to the table which pushes their genre forward.

 

[Skrying]

In what way are these titles pushing the envelope? I'm not arguing against the thought just curious as to what they are specifically bringing to the table which pushes their genre forward.

Mass Effect it would seem in the interaction with the world. From what I've read it should finally be able to make real interaction.

Bioshock could go into the same way, it opens up gameplay to be basically unlimited. Many many many options that create a very real world.

Of course, neither are out so we'll see.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

In what way are these titles pushing the envelope? I'm not arguing against the thought just curious as to what they are specifically bringing to the table which pushes their genre forward.

Same question can be raised for half the tiles on your list.

Why is motorstorm there?
Why is naughtydogs jungle game there? (you have only seen a trailer)
why is gow there?
Why is MGS4 there?

What does theese titles do to push the envelope?

 

[TheChefO]

Same question can be raised for half the tiles on your list.

Why is motorstorm there?
Why is naughtydogs jungle game there? (you have only seen a trailer)
why is gow there?
Why is MGS4 there?

What does theese titles do to push the envelope?

The point of the thread isn't "what titles are pushing the envelope". The point was to try and get insight into what devs on this forum are doing to push the envelope, what are some of the challenges they are facing in doing so, and if they are not pushing the envelope, why?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Then why on earth did you question why Mass Effect and Bioshock should be on that list?

 

[Darkon]

:smile: No way in hell is Doom the first FPS

Edit

and no it's also not wolf3d either

 

[Nesh]

:smile: No way in hell is Doom the first FPS

Edit

and no it's also not wolf3d either

I thought it was Wolfstein, Which was it anyways?

 

[Naboomagnoli]

LOTR pushed the envelope pretty hard with Gollum. Now we have King Kong, Davy Jones, and who knows how many CG lead characters we'll see in the future. Wether that's good or bad is, of course, another question.

I can't believe how many of you are championing Gollum, and not one of you has mentioned Roger Rabbit

I know we've only seen one technical demo of it but I do think Heavy Rain is worth a mention here. Not even sure if it's going to be a game, but in terms of picturing emotionally charged game-dramas/drama-games, I think it did quite a lot for me.

Also, isn't Assassin's Creed worth a mention? Climb anything, interact with a crowd, finally getting rid of that annoying as hell "get shot/hit 50 times and still not die" rubbish (which I first envisioned with a mate when talking about how we'd go about a Star Wars game), the freedom of Oblivion to go where you want and the freedom of Hitman to kill how you want..

edit: Ostepop, the point that TheChefO was making is that it's not a competition to see who can name the most groundbreaking games; it's just that we'd like to be given reasons why they're groundbreaking so that we can go into these gaming mechanisms rather than just drawing up a chart .

 

[Nesh]

Indeed. Assasin's Creed deserves it more than anything.

 

[Darkon]

I thought it was Wolfstein, Which was it anyways?

Well for one the game It Came from the Desert, though the game isn't a FPS it had several FPS levels

Wolf3d is as much the first FPS as metal gear the first stealth game.

 

[assen]

The biggest reason pushing the envelope doesn't happen more often is that the current contents of the envelope are selling pretty well, thank you very much. Take a look at any Top 10 chart, anywhere, for any week.

 

[TheChefO]

The biggest reason pushing the envelope doesn't happen more often is that the current contents of the envelope are selling pretty well, thank you very much. Take a look at any Top 10 chart, anywhere, for any week.

True but also look at how many times (recently in the internet aware age) a game which was looking to push the envelope has been rewarded with brisk sales. Most of the time it is the reason a game does sell well aside from the genres that people just like to get a refresh from on a regular basis such as sport rehashes and racing rehashes and other such filler titles. However when a title comes along that goes above and beyond in a genre it is generally rewarded with healthy profits. Of course there are still titles in the past 5 years that have pushed the envelope and lingured on the shelves and many believe they did not get the attention/sales they deserved however some of these titles did notget the attention they deserved before leaving the devs offices to get shrink wrapped and could have used more time to polish the product up and do a better job of selling itself.

Often times these innovative titles that have sold poorly get to live on in other titles which pick up the better parts and brush them off and give the rest of the game the attention it deserves and it ends up selling extremely well.

Publishers may be playing it safe with a "good enough" attitude but their only goal is to make money where as the rest of the creative community do things...well for money of course but also for pride and sense of accomplishement. Hence award shows etc.

Speaking of that I think the games industry is in dire need of an award "show" with integrity and meaning behind it. To those that think "games != art" - they don't understand the meaning of the word.