Pushing the Envelope

[TheChefO]

Idiom:
push the envelope
1. To increase the operating capabilities of a technological system.
2. To exceed the existing limits in a certain field; be innovative.


When looking at the current next-gen games lineup a thought occured to me that there are only a handful of games that I've seen in development that truly look to push the genre forward in any meaningful way.

Motorstorm
MGS4
Naughty dogs new game
Crysis
Spore
Gears of War

All of which strive to push the envelope in some way: graphics, presentation/production, animation, expresion, interaction/physics etc.

In order for this industry to grow up and out and into the mainstream it must continue to advance as rapidly as possible in all facets which is what the next gen consoles were designed to enable. Now it's just up to the developers to figure out ways to make it happen and for publishers to give them the creative (and financial) freedom to allow it to happen.


What are some of the limitations currently facing dev teams (not necessarily yours ) attempting to push the envelope - and if they are not pushing the envelop, then why?

 

[doob]

I think only spore and Crysis can be considered an actual push on the envelope.
Spore for its gameplay mechanics (animation, reactions/AI) and size.
Crysis, well pretty obvious.

As for the rest, heres my pont of view.

Motorstorm: Very good light and shadowing. Gameplay nothing new at all. Design also nothing mindblowing.

MGS4: Overhyped re-hash but that doesn't mean im saying it's not good, i'v loved mgs since the first title, but so far mgs4 has shown nothing impressive at all, but i expect a nice bump up on that field.

Naugthy Dog new game: To soon to say anything.

GOW: good graphics upclose, but the abused use of dof ruins it also at the same time. Nice strategic gameplay while keeping the action flowing at the same time.

Now as for what currently is limiting dev teams to push the envelope further? IMO hasn't changed much at all. It's time and development costs.

 

[TheChefO]

I think only spore and Crysis can be considered an actual push on the envelope.
Spore for its gameplay mechanics (animation, reactions/AI) and size.
Crysis, well pretty obvious.

As for the rest, heres my pont of view.

Motorstorm: Very good light and shadowing. Gameplay nothing new at all. Design also nothing mindblowing.

MGS4: Overhyped re-hash but that doesn't mean im saying it's not good, i'v loved mgs since the first title, but so far mgs4 has shown nothing impressive at all, but i expect a nice bump up on that field.

Naugthy Dog new game: To soon to say anything.

GOW: good graphics upclose, but the abused use of dof ruins it also at the same time. Nice strategic gameplay while keeping the action flowing at the same time.

Now as for what currently is limiting dev teams to push the envelope further? IMO hasn't changed much at all. It's time and development costs.

Game-wise your comments are debatable but I was more looking for detailed responses of specific cases.

Time and money can only get you so far. If you had 20 years and 50 billion dollars one still could not achieve a truly lifelike, photorealistic and fully interactive world on 360/ps3.

Instead you would say: "x is holding me back from doing z".

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It depends how much you count pushing the envelope. Any game that introduces something new is pushing the envelope in one way or other. eg. F1 has that animated rain effect. WarHawk has volumetric clouds. Heavenly Sword has massive animation detail and NAO32. I think there's more pushing of envelopes then people give credit. As end users, most people just look at the screen and gameplay, and can't appreciate advanced developments in the background. One might even say that unlike some console games, Crysis isn't pushing the envelope. Instead it's riding the crest, using the latest technologies. Unless they're inventing techniques, instead of using very powerful hardware to implemented existing techniques, they're not advancing software technology at all.

 

[Skrying]

Visuals are a stupid area to use the term pushing the envelop, they're doing anything but. Visuals is an area where you must progress, its expected. Gameplay on the other hand is not, and all of those games except maybe Spore are just rehashes of what as been done before.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Visuals are a stupid area to use the term pushing the envelop, they're doing anything but. Visuals is an area where you must progress, its expected. Gameplay on the other hand is not, and all of those games except maybe Spore are just rehashes of what as been done before.

In which case, pushing the envelope is irrelevant. There's only so many new games that you can invent. Most human activities are repeats old ideas. Same with movies. Would you say LOTR wasn't pushing the enevlope with it's epic CG generated content, because fantasy movies aren't anything new?

Whether the technology is driving visuals, audio, gameplay, AI, or anything else, if it's new and an improvement, it's pushing the envelope in terms of software technology.

 

[Skrying]

In which case, pushing the envelope is irrelevant. There's only so many new games that you can invent. Most human activities are repeats old ideas. Same with movies. Would you say LOTR wasn't pushing the enevlope with it's epic CG generated content, because fantasy movies aren't anything new?

Whether the technology is driving visuals, audio, gameplay, AI, or anything else, if it's new and an improvement, it's pushing the envelope in terms of software technology.

What? Are you saying we've run out of innovative ideas for gameplay changes and new ideas for interaction? We've been playing the same games for years now with nothing but visual improvements and slight improvements to the same gameplay foundation. If you consider that pushing the envelop then you are very easily impressed.

Also, no LOTR was not pushing the envelop, besides grand use of CG it was the same book I read as a young kid and has been read for decades before that. Move remakes of books are about the worst example you could use. In no way do they push the envelop.

Its like saying GOW is pushing the envelop, far from it in fact. Instead it mixes great visuals with the same tired formulas. That's not pushing anything, that's market study and realizing people like more of the same.

 

[TheChefO]

It depends how much you count pushing the envelope. Any game that introduces something new is pushing the envelope in one way or other. eg. F1 has that animated rain effect. WarHawk has volumetric clouds. Heavenly Sword has massive animation detail and NAO32. I think there's more pushing of envelopes then people give credit. As end users, most people just look at the screen and gameplay, and can't appreciate advanced developments in the background. One might even say that unlike some console games, Crysis isn't pushing the envelope. Instead it's riding the crest, using the latest technologies. Unless they're inventing techniques, instead of using very powerful hardware to implemented existing techniques, they're not advancing software technology at all.

Agreed - the list wasn't intended to be a full representation of all games currently "pushing the envelope" more a case of a few examples of the top of my head.

I disagree with your assessment on crysis though.
volumetric clouds
Deformable terrain (while not revolutionary isn't commonly used for fps)
Proceduraly generated (altered) faces

 

[Laa-Yosh]

LOTR pushed the envelope pretty hard with Gollum. Now we have King Kong, Davy Jones, and who knows how many CG lead characters we'll see in the future. Wether that's good or bad is, of course, another question.

 

[TheChefO]

Its like saying GOW is pushing the envelop, far from it in fact. Instead it mixes great visuals with the same tired formulas. That's not pushing anything, that's market study and realizing people like more of the same.

I agree that Gears is not completely revolutionary. However it does push the envelope in something.

For others they may push the envelop in level design or interaction or animation or physics or sound or character development or story. Another area of pushing the envelope in my opinion is taking the best of these elements and mixing them with others which elevates a specific genre and the industry as a whole. (ie x game is at the cutting edge in animation but nothing else, y game is at the cutting edge in physics but nothing else, z game combines both and would be considered pushing the envelope also by being the first to have x level animation and y level physics)

 

[doob]

Game-wise your comments are debatable but I was more looking for detailed responses of specific cases.

Time and money can only get you so far. If you had 20 years and 50 billion dollars one still could not achieve a truly lifelike, photorealistic and fully interactive world on 360/ps3.

Instead you would say: "x is holding me back from doing z".

Well you answered your own question then, if it's not time or budget, its pretty obvious its the hardware itself, each with its limitations that cannot reach and display in real time truly lifelike, photorealistic and fully interactive worlds.

push the envelope
1. To increase the operating capabilities of a technological system.
2. To exceed the existing limits in a certain field; be innovative.

You can't increase or exceed the existing limits and the operating capabilities of the technological system (console hardwareor any other hw) just exploit it with tradeoffs and limits. And its what we'v seen, so i stand on the same point of view, time and budget allow for better analysis and inovations while having time to implement them and exploit/tradeoff with other aspects if need be.
And if there's not enough inovation/imagination in games, its probably and most likely because the current hardware wether console or pc won't allow for more.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What? Are you saying we've run out of innovative ideas for gameplay changes and new ideas for interaction?

I'm saying opportunites for totally new ideas are few and far between. Racing, shooting, jumping, space-travel, etc. have all been done. Even new ideas like motion control have had a lot of ground covered in minigames.

We've been playing the same games for years now with nothing but visual improvements and slight improvements to the same gameplay foundation. If you consider that pushing the envelop then you are very easily impressed.

I'm not sure what your definition is. You seemto be saying something has to be new, rather than an improvement on the existing ways, and thus surely nothing can be classed as pushing the envelope? Spore is just an evolutionary God game exptended a couple of degrees. It's nothing that hasn't been conceptually done before, just larger in scope.

Also, no LOTR was not pushing the envelop, besides grand use of CG it was the same book I read as a young kid and has been read for decades before that. Move remakes of books are about the worst example you could use. In no way do they push the envelop.

Never before was a live character replaced by a photorealistic CG character and recomposited very convincingly into the film. How is that not pushing the envelope? Even though the story is old, there's lots of technology and implementations that are new to these games. Which is what I was saying. You can be creating brand new technology as improvements to old ideas without it necessarily being obvious. If that's not moving things forward, pushing that envelope to make the cutting edge become commonplace, then we can never progress.

Putting it another way, what console games in the last 10 years do you consider as pushing the envelope? Many are derivate titles, yet you can't say that we haven't progressed considerably. Do you think PGR3 is sitting in the same envelope as GT2? Both are basic racing games.

I'd say rather than me being easily impressed, you're mixing up 'pushing the envelope' with 'exceptionally rare creative leaps'

 

[Skrying]

Progress is not to be mixed with Pushing the Envelop, very different. In fact, most games these days are nice progression over their predecessors, but they are not pushing the envelop in my opinion.

LOTR is a good example of nice progression, CG is now to the point that it can replace characters, but this was always expected to happen, and with a large enough budget many movies could do it. Its impressive, but again that does not mean its pushing the envelop.

Also, notice I referred to Spore with a "maybe", I have no played it and I've only seen a few small videos and done a bit of reading.

The games that I've found that really make a difference and are truly innovative tend to be small and free games, and I personally can't recall much of anything that I would consider pushing the envelop, I feel such a reference is rare.

 

[Nesh]

What? Are you saying we've run out of innovative ideas for gameplay changes and new ideas for interaction? We've been playing the same games for years now with nothing but visual improvements and slight improvements to the same gameplay foundation. If you consider that pushing the envelop then you are very easily impressed.

Also, no LOTR was not pushing the envelop, besides grand use of CG it was the same book I read as a young kid and has been read for decades before that. Move remakes of books are about the worst example you could use. In no way do they push the envelop.

Its like saying GOW is pushing the envelop, far from it in fact. Instead it mixes great visuals with the same tired formulas. That's not pushing anything, that's market study and realizing people like more of the same.

He isnt talking about the story. Its the same as the book. Its the execution he is refering to. And that execution compared to other movies of similar themes and remakes of books, it did push the envelope. After the first LOTR movie all other movies tried to mimick it

 

[Skrying]

He isnt talking about the story. Its the same as the book. Its the execution he is refering to. And that execution compared to other movies of similar themes and remakes of books, it did push the envelope. After the first LOTR movie all other movies tried to mimick it

Neither am I leaving it to just the story.

 

[Nesh]

btw as for games, I think Motorstorm pushed the envelope as well into some extend. There is a reason why we didnt put NFS:Carpon and PGR3 in that list. And thats because they only improved and made even gorgeous the previous effects.

From what I ve seen so far in Motorstorm although the concept isnt any different from previous games, again its the execution in which it pushes the envelope. The AI is trying to resemble as much as possible that of a human. For example, certain types of car may team up to take out a certain smaller type of car. They will also mock you.

Furthermore, the revengful attitude seems more apparent in this one. Wipeout and Burnout were supposed to show that revengeful attitide (you hit me I ll hit you) but it wasnt obvious. People who got motorstorm talk about the bastard AI.

And another thing that was really absent previously from other racing games was the ground deformation playing part in the game. Previously it was just a visual treat. Now not only does it looks better than ever, with wet mud deforming and looking as realistic as never before, and different (for once it looks like real wet mad deforming and concentrading water in its bumbs) it affects the handling. Heavy cars deform more than smaller cars the ground and accordingly the handling is supposed to be affected.

So it may not have pushed the envelope greatly enough to make you go WILD, but it pushed it

 

[Nesh]

Neither am I leaving it to just the story.

Well talk about the other parts

 

[Skrying]

Well talk about the other parts

What's else to talk about? It had pretty CG? Other than that there was nothing that interesting.

 

[Nesh]

What's else to talk about? It had pretty CG? Other than that there was nothing that interesting.

As I said it was the execution of the movie that pushed the envelope.

Until we see holographic effects, 3D objects sticking out of screen etc I see no other thing in the big screen that will satisfy what you personally describe as pushing the envelope

 

[Skrying]

As I said it was the execution of the movie that pushed the envelope.

Until we see holographic effects, 3D objects sticking out of screen etc I see no other thing in the big screen that will satisfy what you personally describe as pushing the envelope

I disagree that good execution is a way to push the envelop, and that's the problem. Are definitions of what is pushing the envelop is very different.