PS3 virus?

There has been rumors on a Dutch site that the PS3 version is actually going to be Opera. This could explain a few things, like youtube support (PSP doesn't have it), better than Flash 6 support (PSP is stuck at 6.0), and a current different handling of downloadable files (PSP does support it, but Phil mentioned there were limitations for downloading attachments from Gmail for instance on the PS3).

For now I can't verify the source of that rumor though, so it's strictly a rumor.

A lot of articles out there seem to be saying it's "based on Opera" (like here), others saying it is in-house, but I haven't been paying much attention to the former, figuring the authors were just getting confused, or copying from another 'source' author who was confused on the matter. At E3 the Sony rep demoing it said it was an in-house browser, but of course it's always possible she was confused too ;)
 
If they're going to use plugins like Flash and QuickTime, won't they need a browser with a plugin structure where these things are supported already? Or is the Mozilla format open so that anyone can create a browser that can use Mozilla plugins for content?
 
The divx codec was a good example, as it dynamically generated it's decoder code at runtime (IIRC). The way to solve it, at least in the windows world, is to use virtualAlloc, which allocs memory you can exec from.

I'd say (as opinion) most viruses propagate through user naivete. Either through unpatched/not up to date security, or doing stupid things, like opening money_now.exe in an email from nigeria. You can design a system to deal with the former (auto update). You can design applications to deal with the latter. But both still require a competent user.

True. The main benefit Linux has is the limitations it imposes on permissions e.g.
most system libraries require root to write to making the spreading of viruses harder, this is only just now being done in Vista (this is the key to the Linux virus resistance in real-life). Additionally, any virus that targets the PS3 will have to be specifically written for it or consist of malicous source which the user must compile...

The question I'd have would be how locked off sony will make the system. Will the linux install have access to even the BDR drive? downloaded movies/content, etc. Do they want the next xbox-media-centre? And if so in what form.

I'm not going to comment on this, I'm focusing on the security here.

As for language level problems - buffer overflows etc - even managed languages aren't perfect. Look up java on secunia and it has around 30 entries per version. .Net has faired a lot better (1.1 had 11, 2.0 has 2). I've heard whispers that during the 1.1 -> 2.0 change far, far more 'potential' security holes found (and plugged) when they did a complete spec analysis. If memory serves the two 2.0 fixes have been in helper libraries in system.web/asp.net.

This isn't a software virtual machine. This is a hardware provided VM where formal reasoning about hypervisor behaviour can/is often performed because of the vast cost in chip production ($100 million blunder of a screwed up chip vs. $100k to release a software fix). These differ from virtual machines because the TCB size is far smaller (taking Xen as an example, it's only about 5k lines of C) allowing you to fully evaluate an implementation of mandatory access control (like IBM are doing with sHype - the most likely basis for a PowerPC hypervisor).
 
Many thanks guys! A very informative discussion, and I have to admit that I was under the impression that Windows was more vulnerable to a virus just by virtue of it being by far the prevailant OS - I didn't realise it was totally due to flaws inherent in the way it runs.

I was just thinking what a PR disaster it would be for Sony if one did turn up, and how much it'd cost to police such an open network.........it wouldn't surprise me at all if certain people were already looking for such vulnerabilities.
 
SPM stated a huge amount of misinformation in this thread that I had to register to set straight.

There haven't been any successful viruses yet running on any Unix like OSs (Unix, Linux, OSX, FreeBDS) - not even one to date. That is in more than 30 years of existance. By successful viruses, I mean those that have actually spread successfully in the wild. Viruses have been written for Unix like OSes, but because being network OSes, security has always been more stringent than Windows, and that has prevented them from successfully spreading.

The number of viruses on a system is not a measure of its security. There have been plenty of security issues in the history of *nix which have led to system compromises. Viruses have never been popular in the *nix world, but there have been plenty of individual exploits, which are fast becomming the method of choice for commercial hacks.

With Unix/OSX/BSD/Unix, you can exploit coding bugs such as x86 stack buffer overflows to gain root access (worms), but once that bug is fixed, that vulnerability is fixed for good - unlike Windows where a virus vulnerability remains for good because it exploits part of the Windows security model (or rather lack of it) and can't be fixed. In other words virus vulnerability in Windows is down to faults in the Windows security model itself (which can't be fixed without breaking applications) rather than faults in the code (which can be fixed). Hence the virus can come back if you don't install an anti-virus tool on Windows, while that doesn't happen in Unix like OSes.

This whole paragraph is bunk. Are you implying that if you fix a BO in Windows that it isn't fixed? A fixed exploit vector is a fixed exploit vector regardless of OS. You're also completely misrepresenting what a virus scanner does. Virus scanners only help to intercept known exploit payloads. Another exploit of the same vulnerability will easily pass a virus scanner regardless of OS. Security concepts are platform neutral.

One other thing - stack buffer overflow vulnerabilities - which make up the majority of security vulnerabilities are due to a peculiarity of processor architecture. On x86, it happens because the return address on the stack isn't protected against being overwritten by applications accessing local variables on the stack. This is not true of all architectures. Some non x86 architectures are immune to stack buffer overflow because the stack is protected. I am not sure about this, but It is possible that in the Power architecture, it is protected, in which case the PS3 would also be almost immune to worms as well.

Let's get something straight. Stack-based buffer overflow's are a rapidly *decreasing* piece of the pie. The majority of security vulnerabilities are the user setting at the keyboard who runs a malicious EXE on the promise of naked pictures of Britney Spears. Once you clear that ground, the most common vulnerabilities varies substantially based on application. You didn't even mention SQL injection, which has nothing to do with the platform and is one of the more common exploits nowadays.

Finally, Unix like OSes can be vulnerable to trojans (ie. programs the user is fooled into installing). However even these are easier to prevent on Unix like OSes, because applications and data, and system and user areas, are very rigidly separated in Unix like OSes, and it is possible to prevent programs running in user writable directories by mounting those as no-exec. Executables cannot then be run from those directories no matter what the user does.

You obviously know nothing about Windows then. The concept of the seperation of root vs user is common to all operating systems. If anything, the most significant difference between *nix and Windows is that Windows users are more likely to be running as Administrator. If you don't run as admin, a large number of the most damaging exploits of the last 5 years wouldn't impact you exactly because user-mode processes can't do a lot of things.

That said, a user-mode exploit is equally capable of stealing your personal information and trashing your data and documents on both *nix and Windows. If you can read the data, so can an exploit payload running under the same level of privilidge.

But your machine can't be infected without superuser rights, and you can even prevent applications from running in user writable areas of the filesystem if you want. The virus/trojan has to get onto your machine and be run in order to infect other machines. You can of course piss off Windows users by relaying on Windows viruses, although your machine might not be affected.

This is absolutely wrong. Your machine can easily be infected by a user mode process. You don't have to be a superuser to create a process or to write to most of the file system.

Macro-virus vulnerability is an issue however as is running IE with activeX. If you are running MS Office or IE under WINE/Codeweavers (which can be done) then there might be a problem, but the damage would be limited to the sandbox WINE/Codeweavers is given write access to. There could also be a problem with macro viruses on OpenOffice if OpenOffice decided to implement a slack security model like MSOffice which allowed macros to run automatically. So far though there have been no macro viruses on OpenOffice.

What year are you living in that Office runs macros by default? That hasn't been the case for a couple of releases now. Most of the vulnerabilities in Office over the course of O2k3's lifespan were file fuzzing issues (which have exposed buffer overflows, integer overflows, heap overflows, trust-based exploits, and all manner of issues in almost every application known to man since its rise in popularity). OpenOffice is no more immune to fuzzing attacks than MS Office.

On Linux/Unix only superusers can open port numbers below 1024, which prevents users masquerading as a server if you stick to ports below this number for servers. Using iproute and netfilter, you can also easily block services across a range of ports going out of your machine (eg. blocking smtp port 25 traffic going out of your machine from ports above port 1023 to stop spam trojans sending out emails), and you can even tag packets by user id and filter those in very sophisticated ways using netfilter (eg. you could block all packets from user "guest" going out to the Internet or from initiating new connections to a specified set of internal machines/ports).

Wait, you're trying to say that no server uses a port under 1024? Ever heard of relay-proxy attacks? You open a high port, and proxy through another machine which redirects to the default port for whatever service you're attempting to exploit. This sort of thing is a false sense of security. If an exploit is running on your machine, the fact is that it's already too late. Your machine is compromised and any subsequent attempts to block ports from being opened by users are too late.

You have always got this to fall back on. However it is mainly Microsoft who insists on using silly supposedly ease of use security flaws like having Outlook and Office run macros automatically, putting a backdoor like ActiveX into Windows etc. If Linux apps don't copy these "features" then the main vulnerability is plishing.

As I mentioned already, there is no piece of MS software that runs macros automatically by default. I don't know why you think it's the case, but you're absolutely wrong.

ActiveX is a solution to a technical problem. It's original implimentation was certainly far too trusting, but in case you haven't noticed in XP SP2, the user has to explicitely opt to run ActiveX controls. If you allow an ActiveX control that you don't trust to run, then you have only yourself to blame.

Second, you're absolutely wrong that the main vulnerability in *nix is phishing. The more prevelant vulnerabilities are exactly the same ones as in Windows.


Please actually try to get a real understanding of the modern security landscape before making posts like this in the future.
 
True. The main benefit Linux has is the limitations it imposes on permissions e.g.
most system libraries require root to write to making the spreading of viruses harder, this is only just now being done in Vista (this is the key to the Linux virus resistance in real-life). Additionally, any virus that targets the PS3 will have to be specifically written for it or consist of malicous source which the user must compile...

Please, this is a flat out lie. If you're not running as an admin in Windows, you can't touch the root system drive, %windir% or %programfiles%. Nor can you touch any other user's profile. Nor can you touch any location which has an ACL previnting access from non-admins.

You can fault MS for making the default user an admin (a problem which has been addressed in Vista, finally), but saying that they don't have user/root mode differentiation is rediculous.
 
There haven't been any successful viruses yet running on any Unix like OSs (Unix, Linux, OSX, FreeBDS) - not even one to date. That is in more than 30 years of existance. By successful viruses, I mean those that have actually spread successfully in the wild. Viruses have been written for Unix like OSes, but because being network OSes, security has always been more stringent than Windows, and that has prevented them from successfully spreading.

Let me just start by saying this is one of the most massively inaccurate posts I've ever seen on Beyond3D, and I've seen quite a few.

There have been thousands of exploits and worms/viruses for UNIX systems over the years. Don't take my word for it, go to SecurityFocus, click on UNIX, and see for yourself. One of the self-proclaimed most secure UNIX derivatives is OpenBSD, let's take a look at their front-page:

http://www.openbsd.org/
"Only one remote hole in the default install, in more than 10 years!"

They say one, but in reality, there have been several.

Or consider the fact that the first internet worm in history, the RTM worm affected BSD and SunOS systems. Not to mention the sadmind/IIS worm that plagued the internet a few years ago.

UNIX stalwarts like sendmail and BIND are some of the most bug-ridden, exploited applications ever written, so much so there have been many replacements for them over the years.

One other thing - stack buffer overflow vulnerabilities - which make up the majority of security vulnerabilities are due to a peculiarity of processor architecture. On x86, it happens because the return address on the stack isn't protected against being overwritten by applications accessing local variables on the stack. This is not true of all architectures. Some non x86 architectures are immune to stack buffer overflow because the stack is protected. I am not sure about this, but It is possible that in the Power architecture, it is protected, in which case the PS3 would also be almost immune to worms as well.

Plenty of architectures have implemented non-executable stacks, including PowerPC and x86-64. This doesn't make those systems immune to more sophisticated buffer overflow attacks, however:

http://www.suse.de/~krahmer/no-nx.pdf

Also, the classic stack-smashing article, for reference:

http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~dunigan/smash.txt
 
The majority of security vulnerabilities are the user setting at the keyboard who runs a malicious EXE on the promise of naked pictures of Britney Spears.
So it's all Britney Spears fault? I knew she was evil!

I thought the majority of vulnerabilities were users opening attachments from random email correspondant entitled

Code:
"Open_this_safe_virus_checked_file.safe                                   .pif"
                                                                           ^^
                                                                  sneaky sneaky
It's a shame no-one's found a way to patch humanity with a common-sense upgrade.
 
So it's all Britney Spears fault? I knew she was evil!

I thought the majority of vulnerabilities were users opening attachments from random email correspondant entitled

Code:
"Open_this_safe_virus_checked_file.safe                                   .pif"
                                                                           ^^
                                                                  sneaky sneaky
It's a shame no-one's found a way to patch humanity with a common-sense upgrade.

Personally, I think people shouldn't be allowed to use a computer connected to the Internet without a license which they can't get without passing a test which requires them to prove that they won't click "yes" to every dialog warning them that they're about to get owned.
 
Windows file associations are based on file extensions. Unix file associations are not. And you have to set an +x execute flag if you want the shell to recognize it as executable at all - even if it's a script.

So unless you have a really bad email program that goes out of it's way to mimic behavior on windows, virus spread by email is going to be pretty hard even for LCD users.
 
Please, this is a flat out lie. If you're not running as an admin in Windows, you can't touch the root system drive, %windir% or %programfiles%. Nor can you touch any other user's profile. Nor can you touch any location which has an ACL previnting access from non-admins.

You can fault MS for making the default user an admin (a problem which has been addressed in Vista, finally), but saying that they don't have user/root mode differentiation is rediculous.

You can still Trojan a Windows PC running in user mode. The whole "if users were not running as admin this would not happen" argument is not even the right way to look at it.
 
I bet the first virus for the PS3 (should they start appearing) will be traced back to a "recently fired" ex MS employee. (fired as in promoted)
 
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Personally, I think people shouldn't be allowed to use a computer connected to the Internet without a license which they can't get without passing a test which requires them to prove that they won't click "yes" to every dialog warning them that they're about to get owned.
I actually agree with that. Almost all the security faults in computers can be fixed be people using them sensibly. Probably at least 10% of users don't protect themselves based on the number of viral spams I get relative to new customers, and that in turn leads to corporate blackmailing/sabotage with DOS attacks in eCommerce companies etc. Not protecting your computer is a bit like driving a car without working brakes...
 
You can still Trojan a Windows PC running in user mode. The whole "if users were not running as admin this would not happen" argument is not even the right way to look at it.

I never said that running as a limited user makes you secure. I said that a large percentage of the most serious security threats of the last several years have required the user to be an admin for their payload to work. In fact, I explicitly mentioned that an exploit payload running in user mode can still do severe damage (consider the now-popular ransomware exploits, for example).

Obviously, the only way to be truly secure is to remove every possible input device from your computer. Oh, you should probably get rid of the output devices as well to mitigate any potential information disclosure vulnerabilities as well. The problem is, that's not practical. Currently, however, because so many exploits are written (at least in Windows land) with the assumption that you are an admin, running as a limited user does make you *more* secure (which is NEVER a replacement for being CAREFUL in how you use your machine).

Of course, once Vista comes out, exploits will probably move much more into user-land and people will just have to learn to be smart again.
 
Windows file associations are based on file extensions. Unix file associations are not. And you have to set an +x execute flag if you want the shell to recognize it as executable at all - even if it's a script.

So unless you have a really bad email program that goes out of it's way to mimic behavior on windows, virus spread by email is going to be pretty hard even for LCD users.

What are you even trying to say here?

For starters, you're making a bad comparison. The .exe extension in Windows isn't even the comparison to make to the permission bits in *nix. Part of an ACL in Windows is the ability to grant or forbid execute access on any shell object (of which files are one). Extensions are purely there to allow the shell to know what program to use (and how to use it) to open a file.

Second, disabling the execute bit on a file in unix does not mean that the code contained within cannot be executed. Provided you have read access to it, you can copy the data to a new file with execute permissions and run it anyway. Or you could just pull the data straight into memory and feed it to the loader.

Third, the e-mail client argument doesn't even make sense at all. A security feature in the shell will not prevent an e-mail client (which can do with data largely what it pleases) from executing malicious code at its own priviledge level.
 
So, an attempt to bring this back on topic.

Can any console devs here comment on the security issue in the console space? Some particularly interesting things would be:
- How much data do games actually have access to? Only save files for the specific game, all save data, other user data, actual OS data?
- What level of priviledge is game code able to get? If someone, for example, tried to compromise a box via network fuzzing in a multiplayer game, could they create persistent data that could be used to turn your box into a botnet client or something of that ilk?
- Is game code written with a security mindset? Is it common to make tradeoffs of security for performance? Do Sony, MS, or Nintendo provide any guidelines on that route?
 
What are you even trying to say here?

For starters, you're making a bad comparison. The .exe extension in Windows isn't even the comparison to make to the permission bits in *nix. Part of an ACL in Windows is the ability to grant or forbid execute access on any shell object (of which files are one). Extensions are purely there to allow the shell to know what program to use (and how to use it) to open a file.

Second, disabling the execute bit on a file in unix does not mean that the code contained within cannot be executed. Provided you have read access to it, you can copy the data to a new file with execute permissions and run it anyway. Or you could just pull the data straight into memory and feed it to the loader.

Third, the e-mail client argument doesn't even make sense at all. A security feature in the shell will not prevent an e-mail client (which can do with data largely what it pleases) from executing malicious code at its own priviledge level.
So how are behaviors of typical Unix email applications on receiving attachments? Do they allow double-click execution of attachments by default?

Windows XP SP2 on NTFS added ZoneID but it's still not a fundamental solution.
 
So how are behaviors of typical Unix email applications on receiving attachments? Do they allow double-click execution of attachments by default?

Windows XP SP2 on NTFS added ZoneID but it's still not a fundamental solution.


It veries from app to app. It's not like there's a standard. IIRC, Mozilla's mail client will allow you to activate an attachment from the message though.

Could you explain what you mean by "ZoneID is not a fundamental solution?"
 
Could you explain what you mean by "ZoneID is not a fundamental solution?"
Basically ZoneID issues a warning when you try to touch downloaded data... but a human is not a perfect being, you may accidentally skip a warning.
 
Basically ZoneID issues a warning when you try to touch downloaded data... but a human is not a perfect being, you may accidentally skip a warning.

Um... what? IE will give you a warning if you try to execute on a download immediately, but that's about it. Once you'ved saved something locally, it's all local machine zone.

That said, how is this any different from any other platform? At the end of the day, security is only as good as the user behind the screen.
 
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