Profits on consoles

PARANOiA

Veteran
So I've been doing a little thinking about how this gen is going to be profitable for the big three players. They all seem to have a very different strategy this time around. I was hoping for some comments and feedback on the below.

Nintendo Wii:
  • Designed to have profitable hardware from the get-go, so there's an instant money-maker.
  • Lots of accessories - wiimote, nunchuk, standard shell, additional shells will be easy to make and sell
  • No money on memory cards (SD I think)
  • Online strategy unclear - likely free online play, so no money there
  • "Cheaper" to make games for, apparantly, since it's very similar to last gen's hardware.
  • First party library always makes tonnes of cash for Nintendo
  • Virtual console: little costs, just rake in the cash for nostalgia's sake
Xbox 360:
  • Losses on hardware, at least at first, but likely to be profitable before "too long"
  • Lots of accessories since it's designed to be closed - wifi adapter, a bazillion types of cable-sets, remote control, wired remotes, wireless remotes, battery packs
  • Hard drives that are upgradeable, memory cards, no proprietary media
  • Live - probably the best way for MS to make lots of cash. Online play costs money, and everyone wants to be online. Demos and other stuff included in the hook.
  • Live Arcade - lots of little games to pick up
  • Microtransactions
  • Likely much pricier to make games for than Wii, but XNA probably makes life a bit easier
Sony PS3:
  • Losses on hardware - likely to be for quite a while, given both Blu Ray and Cell are new technologies
  • Accessories at the moment appear to be quite thin - Sony won't be making memory cards since there's built in hard drives in all versions, plus there's the card reader... hard-drives appear to be confirmed to no longer be upgradeable. Little in the way of cabling from Sony apparently too - definitely appears no Sony VGA cabling, unsure about other options. Only the six-axis controller, so only a requirement for multiple players (which I'd expect to drop given online play)
  • Free online play, so no
  • Microtransactions appear to be a money-maker, built in to lots of games
  • PS1 back-catalogue purchasable online
  • Expensive to develop for from the looks of things - possible additional cost now available thanks to higher density media meaning more art possible for better looking games, but that tends to cost money for artists
  • Strong first-party line-up
Basically, I'm struggling to see why Sony are going down this path. As a gamer I'm not going to complain about free online play and a lack of requirements for additional accessories... a system with little additional costs means more money for games. But I'm struggling to see how Sony will make as much profit from the PS3 as the competition. Unless it does a PS2 and trounces everyone else, they could be painting themselves into a corner.

Discuss!
 
Basically, I'm struggling to see why Sony are going down this path.

Easy: they have a marketing plan, which is "the bigger picture". And in their plan, they expect to make LOADS of money from other businesses to offset the losses they make on the PS3 hardware. On top of that, seeing how they run the PS3 production from beginning to end, they know they will also continuously improve the processes to make the production cheaper.

Sony will be pushing PS3 and the whole HD thing, making their already market leading HDTVs sell even more (and they make loads of profit on those), plus they expect Bluray to sell a lot, and the profit from those is huge.

In theory, PS3 is their marketing tool to make u buy more Sony things. See the whole 1080p thing, why do you think they're pushing so much for it? For the sake of our eyes?? Nope, to make sure that people know and get interested in their new 1080p HDTV range, which by the way is absolutely fabulous.

Whether it will all happen or not, it's all to be seen, but that's their plan nonetheless.

Sony is a hardware company so they will pretty much always make less money that a mostly software company like MS, therefore their marketing plans have to be different and tailored to what they can do best.
 
The "no proprietary media" for the 360 shurely musht be a mishtake? Because you mentioned the memory cards yourself. And how come you placed "Hard drives that are upgradeable" into the 360 list and not in the PS3 list?
(that's "more official" on the PS3 right now as on the 360 where it still in rumour status AFAIK)

Anyway.
Xbox 360:
  • Losses on hardware, at least at first, but likely to be profitable before "too long"
    <...>
Sony PS3:
  • Losses on hardware - likely to be for quite a while, given both Blu Ray and Cell are new technologies
    <...>
You're being unfair on the cost of the base machine.
The worst case cost of an internal Blu-ray drive is certainly below the cost of an external HD-DVD drive, and if Microsoft can retail a 360 Core plus HD-DVD addon for 500$ and be profitable "before too long", it easily follows that Sony can retail a PS3 for 500$ and be profitable "before too long" as well. Plus they can source components and some of the labour internally.

For the sake of being extra fair and balanced it might be a wash. IMO the PS3 base hardware will be more profitable than the 360, and that's good because the memory card income will be nil.
 
the pure cost of the bluray drive inside the ps3 isnt THAT big i believe, its not made of gold.
 
[*]Accessories at the moment appear to be quite thin - Sony won't be making memory cards since there's built in hard drives in all versions, plus there's the card reader... hard-drives appear to be confirmed to no longer be upgradeable.

I don't think that's correct, I believe the latest I read on that is that it may void your warranty to do so because Sony cannot make any guarantees about the HDDs you put into the system and they suggest using a USB HDD if that'll serve your needs instead. But there's still the slot there for accessing the HDD, and you can still replace it with another one. Not that it's relevant to your point, though, as Sony was not and is not planning to release their own branded HDDs since standard ones work.
 
Yeah the hard drive does seem to be upgradeable still, whether it voids the warranty or not remains to be seen but it is still applicable. MS sells a hard drive (which is the only one that fits) and makes a profit on it. Sony does not get any sort of cut on a HDD sale destined for the PS3, and so it seems sensible not to mention it, or mention it as a negative when considering money made on extras. Also, Zek, perhaps upgradable is the wrong word, but HDDs are for sale on 360 and do make money, they are just the same size as what a premium pack ships with.
 
Easy: they have a marketing plan, which is "the bigger picture". And in their plan, they expect to make LOADS of money from other businesses to offset the losses they make on the PS3 hardware. On top of that, seeing how they run the PS3 production from beginning to end, they know they will also continuously improve the processes to make the production cheaper.

...

Sony is a hardware company so they will pretty much always make less money that a mostly software company like MS, therefore their marketing plans have to be different and tailored to what they can do best.

LB, seems to me an interesting strategy, though. Sony are deliberately setting out to make less money with the PS3 than the past systems, with the plan to offset it via cross-promotion? Sounds possible, if a little risky.

The "no proprietary media" for the 360 shurely musht be a mishtake? Because you mentioned the memory cards yourself. And how come you placed "Hard drives that are upgradeable" into the 360 list and not in the PS3 list?
(that's "more official" on the PS3 right now as on the 360 where it still in rumour status AFAIK)

Anyway.You're being unfair on the cost of the base machine.
The worst case cost of an internal Blu-ray drive is certainly below the cost of an external HD-DVD drive, and if Microsoft can retail a 360 Core plus HD-DVD addon for 500$ and be profitable "before too long", it easily follows that Sony can retail a PS3 for 500$ and be profitable "before too long" as well. Plus they can source components and some of the labour internally.

For the sake of being extra fair and balanced it might be a wash. IMO the PS3 base hardware will be more profitable than the 360, and that's good because the memory card income will be nil.

By proprietry, I meant you can only use MS memory products, whereas both Wii and Sony have a card reader, so you can pick up a cheap flash card and save heaps of money. I guess my use of proprietry was completely wrong - blame it on the beers and the fact there's a public holiday in Melbourne tomorrow ;)

By the "no upgradeable hard drive", I meant Sony won't make any money off it - at least, that's the word from this thread:

* The drive can be upgraded, although not on any official basis (read: YMMV, do so at your own risk, you may void warranty, etc.).
IE, you can, but it's not a money maker for Sony. It will be with MS - assuming the new HDD's shown at the recent Korean show hit the market of course.

To say Sony can retail the PS3 for $500 profitably in the foreseeable future... I would say that's a stretch - but I'm hardly an expert on such things. Maybe the experts who post such things here can give me some insight?
 
Yeah the hard drive does seem to be upgradeable still, whether it voids the warranty or not remains to be seen but it is still applicable. MS sells a hard drive (which is the only one that fits) and makes a profit on it. Sony does not get any sort of cut on a HDD sale destined for the PS3, and so it seems sensible not to mention it, or mention it as a negative when considering money made on extras. Also, Zek, perhaps upgradable is the wrong word, but HDDs are for sale on 360 and do make money, they are just the same size as what a premium pack ships with.
Yeah, that's true, and IMO it is even very likely that a true upgrade (=larger) drive will eventually be sold. I was just thinking that it wasn't right to at the same time ignore how Sony reps have gone on record saying that you can drop in any standard 2,5" SATA HDD.

It's fine to attach little value to that subjectively, but then it should be so in both cases. If we weigh the points in the list against one another there is either something positive missing from the PS3 list or something insignificant added to the 360 list.
 
IE, you can, but it's not a money maker for Sony. It will be with MS - assuming the new HDD's shown at the recent Korean show hit the market of course.
Okay, settled. I can totally agree with that.
PARANOiA said:
To say Sony can retail the PS3 for $500 profitably in the foreseeable future... I would say that's a stretch - but I'm hardly an expert on such things.
I didn't say they can.
I made a connection between the cost of a certain 360 configuration and a certain PS3 configuration. If one of the two is profitable, the other sure as heck is profitable too.
edited bits: something being "more profitable" relative to something else can also mean it makes a smaller loss ...
... or it makes a very small profit at all where the other thing makes a very small loss. Etc. It doesn't mean the PS3 is making money out of the gate, hell no, I have not the confidence to state such things.
 
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LB, seems to me an interesting strategy, though. Sony are deliberately setting out to make less money with the PS3 than the past systems, with the plan to offset it via cross-promotion? Sounds possible, if a little risky.
This has been the clear target. I'll adjust your Sony listing according to my expectations...

Sony PS3:
  • Losses on console hardware - likely to be for quite a while, given both Blu Ray and Cell are new technologies.
  • Profits on other technologies - They'll make profit from Cell system and BluRay systems and content. PS3 promotes BRD as the next DVD standard, which could amount to billions in license fees for no extra effort. Cell could proliferate into other markets, and PS3 is providing a developer training system to breed new Cell developers needed if Cell is to become commonplace
  • Accessories at the moment appear to be quite thin - Sony won't be making memory cards since there's built in hard drives in all versions, plus there's the card reader... hard-drives appear to be confirmed to no longer be upgradeable. Little in the way of cabling from Sony apparently too - definitely appears no Sony VGA cabling, unsure about other options. Only the six-axis controller, so only a requirement for multiple players (which I'd expect to drop given online play)
  • Free online play, so no
  • Microtransactions appear to be a money-maker, built in to lots of games and massive catalogue of Sony content.
  • PS1 back-catalogue purchasable online, along with Sony owned music, films and TV programmes. Readily available content catalogue can establish the service into which other content providers will make available products.
  • Expensive to develop for from the looks of things - possible additional cost now available thanks to higher density media meaning more art possible for better looking games, but that tends to cost money for artists. This doesn't affect Sony's profitability from PS3 directly though. Those costs have to be born by the publishers.
  • Strong first-party line-up.
  • Strong cross-product 'synergy'. Sales of PS3 could promote sales of Sony HDTVs, and PSPs. The ability to find, buy, and download media over PSNetwork, and transfer it to PSP for portability, reinforces the portable platform, which reinforces the PSNetwork as a media distribution platform and attracts more content.
PS3 was never just about making money off the games industry. It's including lots of 'hooks' to promote other sectors that Sony have a part off, in an attempt to make a whole greater than the value of its parts.
 
Also, i think part of Sony's plan that is being overlooked is this:

They really, REALLY want to become your "next PC". It's a very long term plan, which if successful will give Sony a lot, and i mean a lot of room to play around with.

Just think if MS made money out of every PC sold, as they would be manufacturing them, and not only the software. That's what Sony want. Build "PCs" and sell them. By contrast, MS would "only" get money out of Windows and software, which is still a lot.

Now THAT is a whole load of cash.

Added to that, all the software they would make money from, and all the Sony HDTVs or monitors people will buy "because they look good together with the PS3/SonyPC thing"...

See the pattern here? ;) It's almost as if Sony want to be the next Apple. Not sure i agree with the whole thing.
 
I don't think Sony are aiming that high myself. PS3 may be a 'computer' but I hven't seen or heard anything from Sony suggesting they want to become the computer. Their actions to date have been in line with the pursuit of the convergence market and I can't see anything to suggest they're after the PC market too.
 
I don't think Sony are aiming that high myself. PS3 may be a 'computer' but I hven't seen or heard anything from Sony suggesting they want to become the computer. Their actions to date have been in line with the pursuit of the convergence market and I can't see anything to suggest they're after the PC market too.


Well, by PC market i do mean a more Media Centre kind of PC market of course.
 
If Sony is so desperate to be our next "PC," they should ship with a keyboard. At the end of the day, it's just a combo game console/movie player.
 
Basically, I'm struggling to see why Sony are going down this path. As a gamer I'm not going to complain about free online play and a lack of requirements for additional accessories... a system with little additional costs means more money for games. But I'm struggling to see how Sony will make as much profit from the PS3 as the competition. Unless it does a PS2 and trounces everyone else, they could be painting themselves into a corner.

Discuss!

While I agree that some of Sony's moves are confusing coming from the console market leader (i.e. total dominance, a ton of exclusives, and a lot of profits) I think the key to their strategy is they bet the whole house, namely on things like BluRay. They bailed on the DVD Consortium and have a HD optical format that could be very profitable for them. They have the movie studios now to get exclusive content, the only other key is to get it into homes to drown the competition. The perfect delivery platform is the PS3. So the perfect plan is to bail on $20DVD players and $8.88 DVD movies and move the "home theater experience" up a couple notches, cut out the Chinese manufacturers, and milk a premium for a premium experience (with a much more well thought out anti-piracy model). All the time getting larger licensing fees.

But it has been a big gamble. BluRay has been a major source of delays, and now limited units / losses. The original estimate of $900M in losses has nearly doubled to $1.7B in losses -- and that is with ~50% in consoles shipped in said timeframe.

I think Sony has put themselves in a position where they have to execute very well to maintain their 4:1 and 5:1 leads over their competitors. Shipping a year late (even later in the pivitol European and "Other" markets), coming in at an unprecidented price for a mainstream console product, and doing so in a time when multi-platform publishing is becoming very, very common and more reasonable due to the legitimate install base your competitors will have. A lot of this comes down to software (theirs and the competitions), how much are people willing to pay for a console, especially in a market when the also ran (MS) has many of the same games, but is cheaper and the different guy (Wii) could make inroads in your home turf (Japan) and create an atmosphere of, "Wii now... PS3 down the road".

A lot of risks. I am very inclined to believe Sony will execute well. Simple example: They have invested a lot in developers exploiting the PS3. I think MS has done a poor job with 1st parties in regards to having them work directly with the hardware (but MS's strategy is as many high quality games as possible, as soon as possible, to meet critical mass).

Personally, I think Sony could have crushed MS with a much simpler plan this time around. Release in 2005; remove the BluRay drive and go for "par" knowing DEVELOPERS will carry your flag; remove the HDD as standard (huge money pit and standard in some ways due to BluRay) but make it a requirement for Online Play; offer Memory Cards and other accessories.

So you take most of the great stuff about the PS3 (Cell; high performant PC GPU and solid tools from NV and OpenGL to facillitate PC interest and porting; Sixaxis; freem online gaming), you remove the headstart of MS and get in ahead of Nintendo (both key; give MS no leverage and Publishers no incentive to support MS and continue the DOMINANT trend of defacto exclusives; undercut the Wii hype), and remove the huge stumbling block of consumer cost (BluRay, HDD) while offering both in "media" editions and/or addons (e.g. online play).

Basically you get a PS3 minus BluRay. You come in price competitive Day 1, prevent a sales lead, and maintain the defacto exclusive status based on the fact you, at even launch dates, are going to outsell the competitor AND will sell to ALL 3 territories, not just 2 like MS.

Some get upset at the lack of BluRay; but the benefit is more people play your console, sooner, and you don't lose nearly $1.7B, have HUGE delays, and have HUGE production issues.

From the perspective of crushing MS's will to compete I think Sony made the wrong gambles. But Sony I think is looking at BluRay being huge for them, so the risk may be worth it. Time will tell. If we are at 2M units in March and less than 4M in June, well, I think Sony has a problem. If they are sitting at 12M units by the end of 2007 CY, then they made the right choice--especially of unit cost and retail price reduction ramps up quickly. I am not sure how persuasive a $450/$550 console will be when the competitor could be at $199/$299 and the other competitor drops to $150. Cost reduction is going to be something to keep an eye on: Split 128bit memory pools with heterogenous memory types, BluRay/Diode cost reduction, HDD cost control are all factors that Sony will have to fight that others won't. They are the king in this area, so we will see the black magic hopefully.

Big risks, possibly huge rewards. Give it to Sony to go the unorthodox route and play with all the houses money. VERY few companies would have had the balls to make moves like this.
 
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