PPU: Rebirth of True 3D Audio?

[Killer-Kris]

An interest thought accorded to me last night about this PPU and 3D audio. I assume that a PPU is going to have all sorts of wave functions built in and with the talk of collision detection got me to thinking that this might in fact be the return of A3D like sound. (Does Happy Dance)

If that is in fact the case, and developers use it like that, I'd almost certainly pick up a PPU board in a heart beat.

 

[MasterBaiter]

Wishfull thinking perhaps. :?

I'm just thinking that although I'm a game-whore. I still find it very hard to swallow buying a card JUST for physics. If they were able to make it more multi-faceted.... that would be another story. I would love to see a return to a more accurate audio design (ala A3D).
I wonder what other uses (scientific community would most likely jump on this) this chipset may have as well.

 

[linthat22]

I loved my A3d card back in the day. The underdog was surely kicking Creatives ass, before they lost there ass of course. :?

 

[Killer-Kris]

Wishfull thinking perhaps. :?

It might not be that far fetched. If the PPU they're talking about can do the tens of thousands of characters, I imagine it wouldn't be to far fetched to trade off a few dozen to a hundred or so characters in exchange for the audio. The most difficult part likely would be convincing someone somewhere to write the proper sound library and then convincing game developers to use it.

I'm just thinking that although I'm a game-whore. I still find it very hard to swallow buying a card JUST for physics.

Well, we already do it for video games. I figure once they begin tiering the cards much like graphics are now a days (entry level, mainstream, and high end) we'll probably not think much if anything of buying an extra card.

If they were able to make it more multi-faceted.... that would be another story.

I imagine that it'll at least be as generic as current day GPUs, possibly more so. With wave functions alone I imagine there would be plenty of applications (audio compression, mixing, etc...).

I would love to see a return to a more accurate audio design (ala A3D). I wonder what other uses (scientific community would most likely jump on this) this chipset may have as well.

Not just the scientific community, but probably companies like SoftImage and Discreet would be interested in it. As well as all sorts of engineering fields, which I guess is actually just an extension of the scientific community. I could see EEs using a modified version of spice on a PPU, CEs, and MEs doing all sorts of simulations using it, and I'm sure there are plenty of others I can't even think of.

 

[MasterBaiter]

I don't have confirmation yet, but one of my buddies on another board was just saying that Creatives next gen of audio hardware will have hardware wave-tracing. Until I get some more concrete info I"m not going to hold my breath, but it's about time that they did get around to it. He did provide this link in regards to an OpenAL upgrade: http://www.creative.com/corporate/pressrelease/welcome.asp?section=9-2thmar05

 

[Quitch]

After the non-event that was the Audigy4, anything would be an improvement... lord the audio hardware scene is a sad place.

 

[Blazkowicz]

I just think all "3D" sound effects should be done in software (done by the programmer or via a library). I don't want proprietary crap like EAX, I want sound effects working with whatever sound board and whatever drivers I'm using. (BTW, 2D sound should be the proper term, 5.1 and 7.1 are on a plane, right? )

Everything is doable as long as you have access to your 2 or 5.1 or 7.1 outputs.
It's not like a 3ghz CPU can't do some stuff on the small amount of data that is sound (plus we'll get dual core CPUs, and a few years later quad core, and so on).
id software didn't even use A3D/EAX because the overhead of using it cost as much CPU cycles as their software audio engine.

Also creative is really a bunch of assholes, it's the Microsoft of sound. Ever tried to install a sound blaster 5.1 under windows 98 without having the original CD? It took me days, hunting on google for drivers that did not install (because it expects sb live version 454178 and I have 454179) , trying a 3rd party driver that does not work, and downloading a 500MB ISO to finally get some sound (but no control pannel or tools, they refused to install. I expected neat DSP effects on all games, like with my old Maxi Gamer Sound 3D, but usable).
Why are they so anal, providing "update only" drivers on their website..
I had managed to get sound working under MSDOS days before in windows.
I enjoy the raw sound quality (better than SB128 or integrated crap) though.

 

[Sxotty]

You know if nothing else. If the company behind hte PPU could integrate a great sound card on there it would save them from collapsing, which is what will probably happen as of now.

 

[Bolloxoid]

(BTW, 2D sound should be the proper term, 5.1 and 7.1 are on a plane, right? )

3D sound doesn't equal "5.1" or "7.1" speaker systems. 3D sound means that sound sources are positioned in a three-dimensional space around the virtual listener and that sense of localisation is conveyed to the listener, whatever his particular audio setup is. The methods of doing this are various.

 

[MasterBaiter]

I would also like to add that doing wavetracing in software would not be a wise move. :? Hardware accelerated audio does not have to be proprietary as well. It is too bad that there is no one else out there that is willing to take Creative on though.

 

[Blazkowicz]

(BTW, 2D sound should be the proper term, 5.1 and 7.1 are on a plane, right? )

3D sound doesn't equal "5.1" or "7.1" speaker systems. 3D sound means that sound sources are positioned in a three-dimensional space around the virtual listener and that sense of localisation is conveyed to the listener, whatever his particular audio setup is. The methods of doing this are various.

I agree, there are ways to do it with a pair of headphone (though not perfect I suppose). it would be great for me to have a software layer for translating 5.1 sound to "headphone 3D sound".

Strictly speaking 4.1, 5.1 and 7.1 are 2D though. Stereo is 1D, and mono is 0D . 3D sound would mean speakers above you and beneath you.

 

[Killer-Kris]

(BTW, 2D sound should be the proper term, 5.1 and 7.1 are on a plane, right? )

3D sound doesn't equal "5.1" or "7.1" speaker systems. 3D sound means that sound sources are positioned in a three-dimensional space around the virtual listener and that sense of localisation is conveyed to the listener, whatever his particular audio setup is. The methods of doing this are various.

I agree, there are ways to do it with a pair of headphone (though not perfect I suppose). it would be great for me to have a software layer for translating 5.1 sound to "headphone 3D sound".

Strictly speaking 4.1, 5.1 and 7.1 are 2D though. Stereo is 1D, and mono is 0D . 3D sound would mean speakers above you and beneath you.

I get the impression that you entered the PC scene after Aureal and A3D died. If you ever get the chance, load up a PC w\ Win95/98 stick in an A3D 2.0 card, and play Half-Life or Unreal with headphones and 3D audio on. Trust me, you won't be disapointed, and you'll understand what we're talking about here.

 

[Blazkowicz]

No, I entered the PC scene in 1992. Three years with PC speaker, then SB 16, then SB Vibra 16 (worse?), then SB PCI 128, integrated sound, and SB live 5.1 for maybe a year.

 

[Killer-Kris]

No, I entered the PC scene in 1992. Three years with PC speaker, then SB 16, then SB Vibra 16 (worse?), then SB PCI 128, integrated sound, and SB live 5.1 for maybe a year.

Ahh, but with what sounds like a long line of Creative products, you still missed out on a lot.

 

[MasterBaiter]

To get a better understanding of what 3D audio is and isn't... read this article: http://www.cs.umu.se/kurser/TDBD12/HT02/lectures/sound.pdf

or even better:
http://www.iasig.org/pubs/3dl1v1.pdf

 

[Bolloxoid]

it would be great for me to have a software layer for translating 5.1 sound to "headphone 3D sound".

You don't need that for games, that's only useful for sound sources that have been originally mixed in 5.1, like movies. And there are solutions for that, like Dolby headphone that virtualises the speakers and uses headphone HRTFs to render them. The same can be done in DS3D, similarly virtualising the speakers and using your sound card's 3D engine to render them.

Strictly speaking 4.1, 5.1 and 7.1 are 2D though. Stereo is 1D, and mono is 0D .

I don't follow your reasoning. You have three dimensions when you can introduce azimuth, elevation and distance cues, which is possible in every case except mono.

3D sound would mean speakers above you and beneath you.

That's not true either. Elevation cues can be introduced with stereo speakers, HRTFs and crosstalk cancellation. Of course, that requires careful speaker placement and good algorithms compatible with your own anatomy, but it is certainly possible.

 

[Jimmers]

Isn't this something that ATI and NV should implement on their cards? I suppose if they hit a performance wall like Intel and AMD have, it would be a nice 'value-adder'.