PowerVR families - shader capabilities
- Thread starter Megadrive1988
- Start date
PowerVR Family Shaders... hmmm... check here :
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25384
K-
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25384
K-
Megadrive1988
Veteran
now that Eurasia has been officially announced (SGX) it's cool to see that it goes somewhat beyond the 3.0 specification for shaders. this is pretty damn incredible concidering Eurasia is a low-power consumption, low-transistor count family for use in mobile products.
I shutter at the sheer awesomeness that will hopefully be seen when the PowerVR camp unleashes non-mobile (non MBX, non SGX) high-powered GPUs for the arcade, desktop, and other markets. with all the power restrictions removed (relatively speaking).
I am a bit confused though. there is the non-mobile, older version of Series5, which Sega is using (Lindbergh, maybe other boards too?) then there is the new version of Series 5 (Eurasia aka SGX) which mobile products will be using. I assume also there will be new versions of Series5 that are not constrained by mobile restrictions?
Also, is it confirmed that the next-gen Ngage chipset to be used in a variety of phones is in fact using PowerVR? if so, is it still the older (currnet) MBX, or has Nokia going straight to the nextgen PowerVR: SGX ?
I am somewhat reminded of 1997 or early '98 - Videologic announced PVRSG (PowerVR2) would be a family of five chips based on the same core. yeah that's right, five chips.
IIRC, the five PowerVR2 chips were supposed to be:
1.) combined 3D/2D for PC - 2.) 3D-only for PC - 3.) console (Katana/Dreamcast)
4.) lowcost arcade - 5.) highend arcade with geometry co-processor
but later in 1998-1999, plans had changed somewhat. only two different PVRSG chips emerged, used in three sectors:
(1.) PowerVR2DC aka CLX2 for: Dreamcast console, NAOMI arcade (1998)
(2.) PowerVR PMX1 aka PowerVR 250 aka Neon 250 for the PC (1999)
- later, a geometry coprocessor-enhanced arcade system did emerge, using the *same* PowerVR2DC / CLX2 chip. the NAOMI 2 board of 2000-2001. but way back in 1997-1998, it was made to sound like the highend arcade PowerVR2 was going to be a somewhat different chip than the standard PowerVR2 arcade chip. but in the end, the actual PowerVR2 in NAOMI 2 was the same as the lowcost arcade chip which was also the same as the Dreamcast console chip. NAOMI 2 got its power from having twice as many of these plus the seperate ELAN, the T&L geometry co-processor, plus lots of memory.
edit: found another post that backs up what I said about the five versions of PowerVR2
I shutter at the sheer awesomeness that will hopefully be seen when the PowerVR camp unleashes non-mobile (non MBX, non SGX) high-powered GPUs for the arcade, desktop, and other markets. with all the power restrictions removed (relatively speaking).
I am a bit confused though. there is the non-mobile, older version of Series5, which Sega is using (Lindbergh, maybe other boards too?) then there is the new version of Series 5 (Eurasia aka SGX) which mobile products will be using. I assume also there will be new versions of Series5 that are not constrained by mobile restrictions?
Also, is it confirmed that the next-gen Ngage chipset to be used in a variety of phones is in fact using PowerVR? if so, is it still the older (currnet) MBX, or has Nokia going straight to the nextgen PowerVR: SGX ?
I am somewhat reminded of 1997 or early '98 - Videologic announced PVRSG (PowerVR2) would be a family of five chips based on the same core. yeah that's right, five chips.
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=32785
http://members.fortunecity.com/the_ape/powervr.htm
http://groups-beta.google.com/group...ction/msg/f340acb509dc9c82?dmode=source&hl=en
IIRC, the five PowerVR2 chips were supposed to be:
1.) combined 3D/2D for PC - 2.) 3D-only for PC - 3.) console (Katana/Dreamcast)
4.) lowcost arcade - 5.) highend arcade with geometry co-processor
but later in 1998-1999, plans had changed somewhat. only two different PVRSG chips emerged, used in three sectors:
(1.) PowerVR2DC aka CLX2 for: Dreamcast console, NAOMI arcade (1998)
(2.) PowerVR PMX1 aka PowerVR 250 aka Neon 250 for the PC (1999)
- later, a geometry coprocessor-enhanced arcade system did emerge, using the *same* PowerVR2DC / CLX2 chip. the NAOMI 2 board of 2000-2001. but way back in 1997-1998, it was made to sound like the highend arcade PowerVR2 was going to be a somewhat different chip than the standard PowerVR2 arcade chip. but in the end, the actual PowerVR2 in NAOMI 2 was the same as the lowcost arcade chip which was also the same as the Dreamcast console chip. NAOMI 2 got its power from having twice as many of these plus the seperate ELAN, the T&L geometry co-processor, plus lots of memory.
edit: found another post that backs up what I said about the five versions of PowerVR2
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/de.rec.games.computer/msg/49efc6387c82ca88?dmode=source&hl=en
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If there's anything missing for WGF2.0 compliance then it shouldn't be a lot. "Somewhat" is an understatement.
I'm not so sure Lindbergh's GPU is a unified shader architecture. Specifications though should be at least as high or higher as SGX.
Confirmed no. All indications point into that direction though. I read on these boards here from SiBoy that TI is working on a 200MHz@90nm MBX. Considering that it'll consume quite a lot of space on that OMAP2, that's way too big for a mobile phone, for those I figure TI might range somewhere in the 80-120MHz league. Nokia is one of TI's large customers and they don't seem to be willing to abandon the N-Gage idea. No guarantees, but all the above looks like a good base for speculations.
It's too early for SGX, it always takes some time from announcement to integration and before the latter occurs there should come an announcement of the closure of the licensing deal first.
They haven't developed another high end architecture since then have they?
Megadrive1988
Veteran
TEXAN said:
probably not. all we know for certain is PowerVR SGX (Eurasia, part of the Series 5 family) will be somewhere beyond 3.0 as will ATI's Xenos for Xbox 360. - but neither has a full 4.0 shader spec, or otherwise ATI and PowerVR would be shouting it from the rooftops.
the Xbox1 (NV2A) and GeForce 4 TI (NV25) went beyond Shader 1.0 but that did not make either Shader 2.0 capable.
Megadrive1988
Veteran
Ailuros said:
has ImgTec developed / designed another highend architecture since Series 2? yes
PowerVR Series 4 - developed, but canceled
PowerVR Series 5 desktop(?) and arcade (nevermind mobile Eurasia / SGX)
not yet in use, awaiting release in arcades. maybe the PC and other platforms?
developed, yes. released into the market, not yet.
Megadrive1988 said:
Series4 was mainstream IMO; considering it's feature-set. Even if performance was high enough for it's time, if my idea of it should be true a DX7.0 GPU couldn't be considered absolutely high end compared to NV20/25.
Whether that generation went completely to waste or not, you'd have to threaten one of the PowerVR folks on what exactly MBX is more based on.
However they never targeted a console with the Series4, unlike Series5. The latter attempt obviously failed, but how many pontential designs that would have an advanced enough feature-set for a console, can you actually count?
I didn't think Microsoft had yet defined what's going to make up post Shader Model 3, so 3.0 compliance is the most that could be officially rated while the implementations of a processor may go beyond spec, especially one pushing for unified shaders, in whatever directions that the designer feels processing is headed. PowerVR's approach has tended to yeild its own inherent advantages for functionality, so Eurasia may go further beyond SM 3.0 than most.
Nokia and Texas Instruments have taken their time getting MBX products launched, but the next N-Gage should still be a powerful mobile phone platform if Ideaworks3D's ARM MBX test back at the start of 2004 is indicative. They reported that a well known, current generation 3D game was improving its performance when being ported to MBX with both twice the framerate and more geometry.
Nokia and Texas Instruments have taken their time getting MBX products launched, but the next N-Gage should still be a powerful mobile phone platform if Ideaworks3D's ARM MBX test back at the start of 2004 is indicative. They reported that a well known, current generation 3D game was improving its performance when being ported to MBX with both twice the framerate and more geometry.
