You seem to have missed the 2 times more ROPs.
Post-PS4 announcement and 8GB "surprise": Is Microsoft in time to change something?
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You seem to have missed the 2 times more ROPs.
The main problem with Kinect 2 is that the card has already been played, and they played it very well the first time. We would need a significant improvement to make it really count. Not just a solid upgrade, basicly they should get it working like intended, or hoped for? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ArpWuV_zvo
As for the social features i think that Sony got on the ball this round, as i said somewhere else, they know how their customers are playing and sharing right now. Sony has a price against them, maybe a charge for multiplayer (after the reveal of PS4 i think they will have free MP and everything else we saw will cost a PS+). But they have most of their weakness ironed out, launch early enough, solid launch games, straight forward hardware. Unless Sony screws up their PR (like they usually do) they can sell a Console that costs more, hell they are doing it now anyway
What would be the implications if MS stacks a SRAM and DRAM layer onto the logic in an effort to create a big last level multilayer cache, where the SRAM gets the most accessed data and less accessed data is held in the DRAM?
Octopus™ 8-Port DRAM for Die-Stack Applications High-Speed L3 with ECC
Features
ƒCapacity: 1Gb to 4Gb
ƒLatency: as little as 7ns
ƒMaximum clock rate: 800MHz
ƒMinimum Timing: tRCD=2, tCYC=6, tPCR=4, tCL=2
ƒ8 ports x 128 bits each direction
ƒProgrammable burst length: 4 or 8
ƒDDR 1600MT Max
ƒSustainable 50 GB/sec
200GB/s peak bandwidth
Terrazon offers wafer runs through Globalfoundries.
MS is going to have to do something substantial as I can't imagine that eSRAM alone would alleviate the need for 176 GBs of peak bandwidth.
Octopus™ 8-Port DRAM for Die-Stack Applications High-Speed L3 with ECC
Features
ƒCapacity: 1Gb to 4Gb
ƒLatency: as little as 7ns
ƒMaximum clock rate: 800MHz
ƒMinimum Timing: tRCD=2, tCYC=6, tPCR=4, tCL=2
ƒ8 ports x 128 bits each direction
ƒProgrammable burst length: 4 or 8
ƒDDR 1600MT Max
ƒSustainable 50 GB/sec
200GB/s peak bandwidth
Terrazon offers wafer runs through Globalfoundries.
MS is going to have to do something substantial as I can't imagine that eSRAM alone would alleviate the need for 176 GBs of peak bandwidth.
Averagejoe
Regular
MS is selling more 360 than sony is selling PS3 on US,and the ps3 is blu-ray and has free online play.
The xbox 360 is $299 now 8 years after launch,i am sure MS can price Durango $50 more,after all if people are not bother to pay $300 for 7 year old hardware,how could they be for paying $50 more for a much more capable unit.
The cost that almost killed the PS3 was the Blu-Ray drive along with a 1 year headstart, and the PR department that wasn't able to sell wireless rechargeable controllers (yes every PS3 have these), wireless internet access , memory card reader, and a lot of other stuff most 360 users ended up buying anyway. And lets not forget a ugly HiDef war (HD-DVD i still dance on your grave with a smile on my face) didn't make it easier.
The original 360 was a crude primitive fragile console compared to the PS3, my fat PS3 makes the original 360 look like something from 2001
Averagejoe
Regular
Several people here don't eat the whole bandwidth parity,even with ESRAM GDDR5 has more bandwidth and by rumors more available ram for video do to to Orbis OS been smaller in foot print.
How you do know MS has significantly lower cost.?
Comparing the PS3 and the 360 doesn't serve you best,both are extremely different hardware with many differences,and while the PS3 had XDR which was way faster than DDR3,it was system ram not video ram,the video ram on PS3 was DDR3 as well,the only advantage the 360 had was having a unified memory which now the PS4 has to.
Now this hardware is from the same vendor same line,so performance one vs another should be easy to measure.
When all is say and done differences will be minimal but is not because of the hardware been equal,is because 3rd parties don't care for making one version better than another.
But believe me Sony games will show the difference very well.
Which will make a difference if Durango ends up ROP limited and Orbis can fully utilize its ROPs
I don't think either will be the case.
Cheers
Well, several people here can't do simple arithmetic. 104+68 is 98% of 176. 98% is "the same".
Because it has a smaller GPU, and a much (much, much) cheaper memory system.
On top of that it will burn less power, so power brick will be cheaper as will cooling.
Cheers
Averagejoe
Regular
Orbis doesn't have to fully use the 32 ROP to actually outdo Durango,even a high utilization like 24 of the 32 will be more than enough,after all Durango only has 16.
What about frame buffer size - is new XBox limited in any way in this area, p.ex because of 32MB Esram? Or there will be frame buffer in DDR3 (68Gb/s)and Esram (104Gb/s)will be only used on top of it for certain type of effects? How will it determine visuals (more postprocess/particle effects or better textures)?
Also - don't you think that gddr5 will be more expensive only in short term because it is more and more popular - quite opposite to the DDR3 which will be in decline, where DDR4 is already produced and reached its final specs in sept 2012?
Also - don't you think that gddr5 will be more expensive only in short term because it is more and more popular - quite opposite to the DDR3 which will be in decline, where DDR4 is already produced and reached its final specs in sept 2012?
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
Of course I meant BEFORE release. It's in the thread title..
Yes, doing an overclock after release would be suicidal.
With a 30% overclock in the GPU, Durango would actually get near-parity graphics performance.
Averagejoe
Regular
From what i read here and in other places as well there is a debate about that,is not 104+68 per say,you can't ad the number like that,and this is not the only forum i have read that.
Even so 172 vs 176 still favor Orbis.
Yeah it has a smaller GPU and cheaper memory,but also has ESRAM,DME,Kinect.
In fact Kinect is the actual reason why the GPU i so low end compare to how the 360 one was back on 2005,remember MS pay for all the components on Durango i am sure sony make several parts of their console.
You see that in the 360 vs PS3,the PS3 is $260 with HDD,the 360 with HDD is $300,doesn't have blu-ray and make you pay for online play..
I don't know from were people are getting the idea that now Durango will be ultra cheap and the PS4 will not.
ROPs requires bandwidth.
The 7970 has the same number of ROPs as the 7870 (from which the Orbis GPU seems derived), but it has 72% more bandwidth (higher clocked memory and a 384 vs 256 bit bus) and it's 3dMark Vantage pixel fillrate is 66% higher (13.3 GPixel/s vs 8GPixel/s).
This means the ROPs in 7870 runs at 60% utilization compared with a 7970.
Now Orbis has 22.4 GB/s more bandwidth than a 7870, but it also shares its memory bus with a 8 core CPU.
Cheers
And this even without adding 8 times the bw between L1 cache and L2 cache! :O
Lets not forget the retooling of a fab to 90nm to produce CELL, which was then running so under-utilized that Sony had to sell it for pennies to Toshiba (effectively give it away) and take a writedown of billions, then years later, when 90nm was obsoleted, buy it back to produce imaging sensors; IMO, the primary reason Sony jettisoned Ken Kutaragi.
CELL more than anything cost Sony. The huge initial investment, the enormous writedown on the fab and the very rough initial performance.
Cheers
The new kinect is unlikely to be free, and will probably eat a fair portion of the silicon cost difference between PS4 and durango. The new playstation eye on the other hand is as simple and dumb as can be, hardware-wise. There isn't even any image compression circuitry packed in there (not that you'd want any anyway in this case as latency is of the essence), it transfers raw data over whatever interface they picked...which may well simply be two USB2 interfaces jammed together into one custom connector for all we know; one per camera, possibly sharing the mic arrays...
The difference is unlikely to be very appreciable. Both consoles have very modest specs by today's standards.
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