Post-PS4 announcement and 8GB "surprise": Is Microsoft in time to change something?

[Alexct]

So you really expect MS to price Durango lower than the current premium 360 on the market.?

Come on be serious i don't think Durango will come out for less than $350 Wii U price,and that is making a sacrifice.

Would you pay never a console with 8 GB DDR3 and GPU of 1.2 Tflops more than 249/299$??The WiiU is a flop because it has a HW ridiculous too high a priceMS can not pricing the next xbox over the 249/299$ when the ps4 will be on 399/449$.
MS needs a selling point and can not be kinect 2 since its games are not selling (Fable the Journey was an epic fail).MS must give at least a reason to millions of users core on the 360 ​​to continue with the next xbox and if that reason can not be the graphics remains to focus only on price.

 

[liolio]

I'm sure MS is fine with their planned solution and will be borne out as having been plenty to meet or exceed expectations for this coming gen.

The integrated media and social features, the Kinnet 2 support (which I think will surprise more than a few albeit not HC gamers) the hardware design itself will prove to be more than capable as this was not designed in a vacuum but with input from their development partners to a degree.

Then add in a price possibly $50-$100 less than Sony's product and a release to market beating Sony by at least a month and possibly more in Europe... and I would wager they are not sweating this reveal.

Well price by self doesn't say the whole picture if you bound lot of the system functionality to a subscription as in the 360.

I'm exactly the kind of people that doesn't really care for MP online game, I am willing to compromise (reasonably and durango should be "there") on graphic IQ and I'm willing to save every pennies I can save. But, I won't pay to use a browser, netflix and what not in 2013 on a system I already paid and that does what it does with the 'bandwidth' I'm already buying at my ISP.
As for used games and always on... it's a clear no even if only half of the statement is true.
I'm to move in an old house, not sure how wifi will fare, I want to be able to play in any room without having to think about how is the network in that room (if there is any at all).
For used games, it is not a massive no, but I'm would think more than twice before buying a system with those kind of policies.

People can criticize Steam all they want, you can't still resale your content but at least the price are competitive (and I don't expect either Sony or MSFT to lower games prices, I think nobody does). Thing is I can buy PC outside of Steam.
A naughty side effect is that I would pass on anything but top games /sure games, as giving at try to a A/AA games without being able to resale it if it is not my cup of tea has more implications that one would think.

Overall so far we discussing rumors but looking at MSFT last moves (IE only for gold user was unacceptable imo in 2012, still is in 2013...) I anticipate that I may not have that much of a hard time to make my mind this time around ( if I buy on console that is it) deciding on my system of choice.
Pretty much MSFT just has to clarify is business wrt always online, used game and what functionality are available if you buy the bare system.

Truth be told, in the case I buy a console I would put the odd of going with Sony this time around ~95%, and it won't for the specs or the (initial) price.

Obviously that is subject to change as we get new information and ultimately when MSFT unveils its products clearing doubts on the matter.

 

[dagamer]

The problem with this discussion is you cannot compare performance without comparing price. If the PS4 costs $100 more than the 720, then Microsoft has less to worry about (though do keep in mind the PS3 outsold the 360 by large margins in Europe and Japan). But if the difference is $50 or less, then Sony "wins".

Though if I had to guess, Microsoft built its console with a $399 budget in mind, and will use subscriptions to get that price to $199. Sony on the other hand also probably built a console for $399, but that 8GB GDDR5 spec bump will probably make it $449. Then question will be, are the games on the PS4 going to be better enough to the point that people will notice? This isn't like the PS3 vs. 360 where developers dislikes the system architecture of the PS3. The PS4 basically takes whatever the 720 has and says "here, have faster memory, and more GPU compute" to make for a more flexible system (ESRAM not withstanding).

 

[brasnial]

Your hook is not your CPU out GPU......these things only matter to a very few gamers ......games matter most to games .
The catch the cost of making great games is rising but at the same time your market is not .
Its fragmenting ....smart phones ...tablets there all eating into your market .
The wii sold like hot cakes because its captured the public's imagination ...its blazed a trail it showed once and for all the was a bigger market out there .......no need to just caught the hardcore gamer alone ....go for both if you can.

I have not counted Microsoft out of the spec race just yet but hay as long as its good enough .......and its hooks the bigger casual market as well then its all good .

show us great games with solid graphics but at the same time have your hook to get the wilder public interested give the developers the biggest market possible to sell games to ......help them make money and watch them make bigger and better games .

That's really all that matters nothing else ..........market share will make or brake any company .

 

[brasnial]

I for one don't believe kenect alone will be Microsoft's hook .....but maybe this will be kenect camera plus Skype .......
Free on limited Skype video calls between xbox live subscription members .
My god advertise the hell out of this £50 a year to talk to friends and family from all other its a killer hook, if they use it .

My mother would buy one to talk face to face with her grand children in a heart beat .

Think hooks ...people .......

 

[liolio]

Looking at the 28nm GPUs that AMD has #right now# in the market, I think you're being (way) overly dramatic about the need of 2 lithography node jumps.

The current rumours point at a Cape Verde @ 800MHz.
A 30% overclock would result in a 1040MHz Cape Verde GPU, which you can find right now using coolers like these:

In a card that consumes 80W (GDDR5 memory included).

Yes, there's more in the SoC besides the GPU and memory controller, but it really doesn't seem like a 25-30% overclock in the GPU alone would dramatically change everything about the console.

How a 20/30% overclock which doesn't translate by the way linearly in 20/30% more performances is relevant?
I mean really? Early adopters have to change, either way the manufacturer has to replace the system (and throw the old one away...).
Going further down the line, as the system is not using off the shelves part you have to redesign a new system and so on. Anyway there is a topic on the matter and I won't participate to that discussion as it is imo not interesting.
We have upgradable systems, plenty, those are not consoles or do not rely on any kind of specific hardware but on OS and API. Nothing to see here, we have Android based products, linux PC, Windows PC, Macs, I don't think MSFT would consider a second creating a sort of "close" windows environment. If they were to do it a good start would have been their mobile products.
As for patent on the matter, well 99% of the patent are useless /never meant to be used.

It does not make sense to me, at all.

EDIT
I think I missread your post, if you mean overclocking the system before released, it might be doable to some extend but even that could be too late.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well price by self doesn't say the whole picture if you bound lot of the system functionality to a subscription as in the 360.

I'm exactly the kind of people that doesn't really care for MP online game, I am willing to compromise (reasonably and durango should be "there") on graphic IQ and I'm willing to save every pennies I can save. But, I won't pay to use a browser, netflix and what not in 2013 on a system I already paid and that does what it does with the 'bandwidth' I'm already buying at my ISP.
As for used games and always on... it's a clear no even if only half of the statement is true.
I'm to move in an old house, not sure how wifi will fare, I want to be able to play in any room without having to think about how is the network in that room (if there is any at all).
For used games, it is not a massive no, but I'm would think more than twice before buying a system with those kind of policies.

People can criticize Steam all they want, you can't still resale your content but at least the price are competitive (and I don't expect either Sony or MSFT to lower games prices, I think nobody does). Thing is I can buy PC outside of Steam.
A naughty side effect is that I would pass on anything but top games /sure games, as giving at try to a A/AA games without being able to resale it if it is not my cup of tea has more implications that one would think.

Overall so far we discussing rumors but looking at MSFT last moves (IE only for gold user was unacceptable imo in 2012, still is in 2013...) I anticipate that I may not have that much of a hard time to make my mind this time around ( if I buy on console that is it) deciding on my system of choice.
Pretty much MSFT just has to clarify is business wrt always online, used game and what functionality are available if you buy the bare system.

Truth be told, in the case I buy a console I would put the odd of going with Sony this time around ~95%, and it won't for the specs or the (initial) price.

Obviously that is subject to change as we get new information and ultimately when MSFT unveils its products clearing doubts on the matter.

There are rumours that Sony is going to replace PSN+ with a tiered services system that requires payment for full feature, so we'll have to wait and see how the two online systems measure up. There are also rumours that Sony was going to block used games, and as far as they've said that is not true, so I'm taking the "no used games" on xbox rumour pretty lightly. We'll also see how "always online" works.

 

[kots]

The only thing they can do is going back to the drawing board and release 6~8 months later .
If they go with the current specs they're done .

 

[djskribbles]

If priced below the PS4, I think Durango can still be successful. Delaying would not help IMO.
I think this generation will be a two horse race between MS and Sony. Sorry Nintendo...

 

[upnorthsox]

There are rumours that Sony is going to replace PSN+ with a tiered services system that requires payment for full feature, so we'll have to wait and see how the two online systems measure up. There are also rumours that Sony was going to block used games, and as far as they've said that is not true, so I'm taking the "no used games" on xbox rumour pretty lightly. We'll also see how "always online" works.

Yep, for both camps these are business decisions that can change up to the last second. None of these rumors should be taken without lots of salt.

 

[liolio]

There are rumours that Sony is going to replace PSN+ with a tiered services system that requires payment for full feature, so we'll have to wait and see how the two online systems measure up. There are also rumours that Sony was going to block used games, and as far as they've said that is not true, so I'm taking the "no used games" on xbox rumour pretty lightly. We'll also see how "always online" works.

I read the same thing as you do

For now all that is iffy by nature, mostly rumors talk but if we don't stick to rumors on which basis we discuss? My pov is not set stone till manufacturers officially unveil the system (sony did but everything should be know by E3).
I think there is going to be more online pass kind of stuff, or content that only accessible to the primary buyer (code based could affect online), but at least SOny confirmed that they enforce nothing (no always on, no used game policies), the parallel is that they could be pretty lose wrt to editors choices.
It is still a good news imo, I can pass on some editors that are pushing way too hard especially as this gen has been pretty resilient to piracy. I may say fuck to the whole thing altogether (sony+msft), I'm ok about fighting piracy, it is getting tedious now that it is nothing less than my "ownership" they are fighting...
Online pass (for online MP) is OK, if you can rebuy it for a sane price (/not nullifying the value of the resale games). As for single player games or games based on local mp...

I mean at some point we have to say no, they are attacking us on relatively small things, but if they succeed next are cars and what not. Cars are just a copy of an IP, you can not own it (completely) and resale it because you don't own the IP. Pretty much everything we buy is based on an IP(s).

They will get a no from me, if may spend my game money on sport as I used to do or find other sources of entertainment.

 

[Gubbi]

The only thing they can do is going back to the drawing board and release 6~8 months later .
If they go with the current specs they're done .

Why?
1. Durango has the same CPU
2. Durango has the same aggregate bandwidth (DDR3+ESRAM VS GDDR5).
3. Durango has a much lower latency memory system
4. Durango has 33% less GPU flops.
5. Durango has lower power consumption.
6. Durango has significantly lower costs.

Performance-wise it boils down to point 3.) vs. 4.)

Sales-wise, it boils down to 3.) vs 4.) qualified with 6.)

It's like it is 2005 all over again.

Back then Sony's PS3 was also hailed as a sure winner with its 230GFLOPS CPU vs. the 360's 77GFLOPS, 400GFLOPS (heh !) GPU vs the 360's 240 GFLOPS, HDD in all SKUs, Bluray drive vs DVD and twice the main memory bandwidth (graced with the awesomeness of XDR memory).

Guess what? The cost almost killed the Playstation brand and the majority of cross platform games was (is) better on the 360.

So lets just wait a year to see actual games on actual hardware before passing judgement.

Cheers

 

[Scott_Arm]

I read the same thing as you do

For now all that is iffy by nature, mostly rumors talk but if we don't stick to rumors on which basis we discuss? My pov is not set stone till manufacturers officially unveil the system (sony did but everything should be know by E3)...

It's the difference between saying MS might block used games versus getting upset and saying that they will block used games. They haven't done it yet, and there's a good chance they will not. Lots of people are taking the rumours as if they're 100% true. IF they announce that they've killed off used gaming, then I'll be standing right beside you telling everyone not to buy their product.

 

[djskribbles]

Back then Sony's PS3 was also hailed as a sure winner with its 230GFLOPS CPU vs. the 360's 77GFLOPS, 400GFLOPS (heh !) GPU vs the 360's 240 GFLOPS, HDD in all SKUs, Bluray drive vs DVD and twice the main memory bandwidth (graced with the awesomeness of XDR memory).

Guess what? The cost almost killed the Playstation brand and the majority of cross platform games was (is) better on the 360.

So lets just wait a year to see actual games on actual hardware before passing judgement.

Cheers

Last generation the PS3 and 360 had parts from different manufacturers, so judging by numbers or on paper was less useful. Plus it was mostly due to the fact that Cell was difficult and very different to program for that caused multiplatform games to generally look worse on PS3. The PS4 won't have that problem.

But I agree.. I don't think MS is doomed if they release it with the rumored specs, and I think delaying it to try to match the PS4's specs would hurt them if anything.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Why?
1. Durango has the same CPU
2. Durango has the same aggregate bandwidth (DDR3+ESRAM VS GDDR5).
3. Durango has a much lower latency memory system
4. Durango has 33% less GPU flops.
5. Durango has lower power consumption.
6. Durango has significantly lower costs.

Performance-wise it boils down to point 3.) vs. 4.)

Sales-wise, it boils down to 3.) vs 4.) qualified with 6.)

It's like it is 2005 all over again.

Back then Sony's PS3 was also hailed as a sure winner with its 230GFLOPS CPU vs. the 360's 77GFLOPS, 400GFLOPS (heh !) GPU vs the 360's 240 GFLOPS, HDD in all SKUs, Bluray drive vs DVD and twice the main memory bandwidth (graced with the awesomeness of XDR memory).

Guess what? The cost almost killed the Playstation brand and the majority of cross platform games was (is) better on the 360.

So lets just wait a year to see actual games on actual hardware before passing judgement.

Cheers

The difference was last gen the two consoles were roughly equal in "real world" performance. This gen, if Sony comes out clearly ahead on the hardware, and the games show it, then there will be a justification for the price tag other than the brand logo on the front.

So to me, it comes down to whether the performance difference is visible on screen, and if that justifies a price difference (however much that may be). Those 32 ROPs (according to rumours, vs. 16 for Durango) could be the biggest boon for PS4. The architecture of the GPUs and CPUs is identical according to the rumours, so I think this is more of an "Apples to Apples" to comparison (minus memory) than it was last gen.

I don't think MS will make any last minute changes based on what we saw yesterday. I don't think there's anything simple they can do if they want to launch by year end. We'll see if what they announce has any similar anomalies from the leaks, but I'm guessing any changes they'd be making would have been in the works for a while now.

 

[dagamer]

The difference was last gen the two consoles were roughly equal in "real world" performance. This gen, if Sony comes out clearly ahead on the hardware, and the games show it, then there will be a justification for the price tag other than the brand logo on the front.

So to me, it comes down to whether the performance difference is visible on screen, and if that justifies a price difference (however much that may be). Those 32 ROPs (according to rumours, vs. 16 for Durango) could be the biggest boon for PS4. The architecture of the GPUs and CPUs is identical according to the rumours, so I think this is more of an "Apples to Apples" to comparison (minus memory) than it was last gen.

I don't think MS will make any last minute changes based on what we saw yesterday. I don't think there's anything simple they can do if they want to launch by year end. We'll see if what they announce has any similar anomalies from the leaks, but I'm guessing any changes they'd be making would have been in the works for a while now.

We also cannot forget that the PS3 came out a year later at $100-200 more expensive and still outsold the Xbox 360 in Europe, Japan, and rest of Asia. And that's with just so-so difference in game performance/visuals, if any, at launch.

 

[DopeyFish]

MS could modify the clocks a bit, if their cooling solution can handle it

They'll take a hit on yields but still have a nice price advantage- Sony doing 8GB GDDR5 might have made that hit possible for them

 

[AzBat]

I don't see MS delaying either. They will ship this year with whatever specs they had in place. The only thing I think they might do is change business plans and/or adding more value via peripherals/controllers. It's possible they may add larger hard drive, drop the no-used games requirement, upgrade controller or Kinect, maybe even provide their own tablet. And as always I think they could drop system price or change their subscription/subsidized plans. There are all kinds of little tweaks that can be done that can make up for deficiencies in tech specs.

Personally I have way too much invested in the Xbox brand & service. There's no way I would jump ship. I might not like how they may be under-powered compared to the competition, but they just don't have the games & services I like. My current Xbox is on the brink of dying(had it for 5 years & the drive won't always open & has problem reading discs). So I might do the impossible: save my money & instead of buying another 360 & buy a 720 at launch instead. I may have to go with the subsidized plan though, but I won't have a problem with that if it lasts as long as my 360 did.

Tommy McClain

 

[Silenti]

Isn't the only easy switch exactly what they did last time and what Sony may have done this time? Release the dev kit version which has more RAM? For MS I believe that is 12GB, not 16GB. I'm not sure what, if anything, that would gain them.

 

[Tap In]

It's the difference between saying MS might block used games versus getting upset and saying that they will block used games. They haven't done it yet, and there's a good chance they will not. Lots of people are taking the rumours as if they're 100% true. IF they announce that they've killed off used gaming, then I'll be standing right beside you telling everyone not to buy their product.

and i'm still not convinced that sony's position will stand the generation either. I think they have a system in place to do it if they so choose, and might.

It's just not a good time to say it.