PlayStation 3 to feature Blu-Ray disc - Official!

[kaching]

PC-Engine,

Funny, for someone who claims not to want to waste their time digging through my garbage, you've done it twice now, at length. Go ahead and keep responding to my posts because you'll only be digging yourself in deeper

And since you also claim to have such a keen eye for identifying "keyboard masturbation" vs. relevant facts, you'd think you could have bypassed all these superfluous counterpoints and gotten right to the core of my argument in the first place. But you still haven't demonstrated your ability to do that.

 

[snacky]

You know, when I first started reading this forum casually, I wondered why there were so many locked topics in it.

This particular thread is a perfect example of why. I mean, what in the holy hell are you guys babbling about for 10+ pages? Almost none of it has anything to do with any game console, and most of it is pretty asinine.

I know people here are capable of keeping up some decent discussion but this thread isn't a shining example of it.

 

[PC-Engine]

PC-Engine,

Funny, for someone who claims not to want to waste their time digging through my garbage, you've done it twice now, at length. Go ahead and keep responding to my posts because you'll only be digging yourself in deeper

And since you also claim to have such a keen eye for identifying "keyboard masturbation" vs. relevant facts, you'd think you could have bypassed all these superfluous counterpoints and gotten right to the core of my argument in the first place. But you still haven't demonstrated your ability to do that.

Ah yes dodging the issue, that's what usually happens when one doesn't have evidence to support their argument because the best one could do is come up with conjecture...

 

[-tkf-]

The only relevent information is that they didn't use the maximum disc space. Conjecture or fact? Why they didn't add bonus features is irrelevent and anything not fact is pure conjecture.

Well there are a number of reasons, Max Space = Two Layers = More expensive to produce (we face this dilemma everytime we produce one).

(I wouldn't be suprised if this will be a BluRay advantage since some releases will require DL on HDDVD and only SL on BluRay. Time will show since we only have prices from each camp.)

More xtras = more money

When DVD started out there was a fraction that bought them compared to now. The market is big and very competetive and the demands for extras (long bulletlists) is way bigger now.

And sadly this has caused the image quality to be second to extras now (in some cases not all)

There is still barebone releases and thankfully some of them doesn't take the low road and only uses SL. But few of them includes a DTS track like SB, i would guess the extra costs for using two Sound Codecs is a part of this.

 

[j^aws]

Optware's Collinear Holography together with Sony's blue laser diode ignites Sony's Holographic Optical Data Storage Development.

http://www.optware.co.jp/english/what_040727.htm

Optware Corp., the developer of Collinear Holographic Data Storage System, announced today that it had accepted an order from Sony Corp. for a holographic optical disc read / write equipment, which uses Optware's patented collinear holographic system. Sony's blue laser diode with external cavity (for holographic data storage) will be used for the system's laser source.

This development equipment uses the collinear holographic system to read and write data to a holographic optical disc. As such it is instrumental in accelerating the development of holographic optical disc storage systems and media. By adopting a blue laser diode as the laser source, Sony hopes to develop low-cost storage solutions for the consumer market in the near future. Optware expects to deliver the system as early as mid-August.

1 Terabyte Sony Holo-Ray discs as a Blu-Ray successor?

I dunnu, Sony may use something like this in the near future but prolly for very specilaised cases/ or purely an exercise on the possibilities. I don't see them pushing this as say a mass market device as a succesor for Blu-ray with a PS4 or something. Purely because, IMO, they don't hold all the patents on it! Blu-rays successor will come from within Sony, IMO.

Btw, Wow...1 TB Holo-Ray disc! 8)

 

[Bowie]

Well here's more on the subject:

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801,95446,00.html?SKC=storage-95446

Drives for home users will cost about $2,700, about the same as commercially available Blu-ray Disc players cost now. While Kageyama didn't have a cost estimate of future home-use HVDs, he said that a number of Japanese, European and U.S. companies led by Sony Corp. have expressed interest in the technology. Last month, Sony ordered collinear technology equipment from Optware to research and develop holographic storage technology and disc manufacturing systems using blue lasers, according to an Optware statement.

"Sony and some major Japanese electronics companies are studying holographic storage to replace HD-DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. Sony wants to develop next-next-generation storage technologies, and we can say that our collinear solution is getting very popular," Kageyama said.

 

[j^aws]

Moving the thread forward on the topic of Blu-ray for PS3, and for what it provides in raw capacity, do people see this 'capacity' used wisely for games or are we gonna see a raft of FMV sequences filling up the space. Or is it all superfluous to requirements?

GTA:San Andreas uses a DL DVD now, 9GB data and they even claim they are pressed for space. Imagine GTA "6" on the PS3, way more data needed, i wouldn't be suprised if they would need 20GB for that game.

On another note, the game is looking good, looks like they concentrated on getting things a bit better looking and most importantly, the engine runs more smooth now and at a steady framerate (Solid 30FPS was mentioned.. i believe it when i see it)

http://63.236.94.187/satrailer/GTASAtrailer1_640x480.mov

Defently looks like its taken directly from a PS2

Thanks for link...GTASAs looking sweet! ...Geez, I 'can't believe they're using up all that disc space already on DVD's, prolly all sound tracks! I suppose it depends on the type of game...apart from GTASAs, are they're any other current gen games approaching that kind of disk space?

Moving the thread forward on the topic of Blu-ray for PS3, and for what it provides in raw capacity, do people see this 'capacity' used wisely for games or are we gonna see a raft of FMV sequences filling up the space. Or is it all superfluous to requirements?

I think it will depend on the budget of the game. If it's a huge budget then it'll probably need the space because there will be more content whether it's HD FMV or higher resolution textures just more raw polygon data. However the high polygon data can be negated by using HOS, displacement mapping etc. so that might not be a factor at all.

I could see FF type big budget games taking up Blu-ray space etc. and it would be interesting to see what big budget, HD quality FMV would look like on such a setup, obviously not to the detriment of gameplay...

It wasn't until recently it even became an option. I agree it seems likely that BRD will include support for MPEG4-AVC but nothing is given. HD-DVD OTOH will support MPEG4-AVC and VC9 as well I believe.

"MPEG4-AVC" aka "H.264/AVC" (for HD-DVD) and "MPEG4-AVC High Profile" aka "H.264/AVC FRExt" (for Blu-ray) are different codecs.

MPEG4-AVC is optimized to non-HD contents, thus not as good as MPEG2 or VC-9 for HD contents representation. MPEG4-AVC High Profile, to be adopted for Blu-ray (or more specifically BD-ROM), is the newer and improved version of MPEG4-AVC with good compatibility with HD contents and other refinements.

So what are the technical differences between these two MPEG4-AVCs?

 

[one]

It wasn't until recently it even became an option. I agree it seems likely that BRD will include support for MPEG4-AVC but nothing is given. HD-DVD OTOH will support MPEG4-AVC and VC9 as well I believe.

"MPEG4-AVC" aka "H.264/AVC" (for HD-DVD) and "MPEG4-AVC High Profile" aka "H.264/AVC FRExt" (for Blu-ray) are different codecs.

MPEG4-AVC is optimized to non-HD contents, thus not as good as MPEG2 or VC-9 for HD contents representation. MPEG4-AVC High Profile, to be adopted for Blu-ray (or more specifically BD-ROM), is the newer and improved version of MPEG4-AVC with good compatibility with HD contents and other refinements.

So what are the technical differences between these two MPEG4-AVCs?

MPEG4-AVC High Profile
= MPEG4-AVC Main Profile + 8x8 transform + quantization matrix + 4:2:0/4:2:2/4:4:4 color sampling formats + 10bit/12bit sampling

MPEG2 and VC-9 have a quantization matrix and 8x8 transform too.

BTW, MPEG4 AVC essential patent holders are
http://www.mpegla.com/news/n_03-11-17_avc.html

Columbia University, Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute of Korea (ETRI), France Télécom, Fujitsu, LG Electronics, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, Philips, Robert Bosch GmbH, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Toshiba, and Victor Company of Japan (JVC).

VC-9 patent holders are not yet determined but will be announced soon, though it's expected that almost the same names as in MPEG4 AVC will be on the list with extra implementation patents for Microsoft.

 

[cthellis42]

You know, when I first started reading this forum casually, I wondered why there were so many locked topics in it.

This particular thread is a perfect example of why. I mean, what in the holy hell are you guys babbling about for 10+ pages? Almost none of it has anything to do with any game console, and most of it is pretty asinine.

I know people here are capable of keeping up some decent discussion but this thread isn't a shining example of it.

This particular one has only been the last five or so, since the beginning was on entirely different matters. (And a few odd posts in the middle have tried to get back as well.)

I think it's mainly because no one's had a good bitch-session for a while. There's no invective flying around, so it's all just people's desire to debate. Certainly anyone who got turned off by it had left long ago. After the clearing-house a while back, we've pretty much lost the people who promoted real crap on a forum-disruption scale. One thread with people arguing over a trivial matter is nothing!

 

[Farid]

Columbia University, Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute of Korea (ETRI), France Télécom, Fujitsu, LG Electronics, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, Philips, Robert Bosch GmbH, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Toshiba, and Victor Company of Japan (JVC).

*Scratches head*

 

[London Geezer]

And since you also claim to have such a keen eye for identifying "keyboard masturbation"

EWWW....

 

[-tkf-]

Thanks for link...GTASAs looking sweet! ...Geez, I 'can't believe they're using up all that disc space already on DVD's, prolly all sound tracks! I suppose it depends on the type of game...apart from GTASAs, are they're any other current gen games approaching that kind of disk space?

Well on Vice they used some heavy compression and the music still took up 1.37 GB. That is out of the 4.35 GB, i have a feeling they padded the rest of the data though.

I find the GTA series on PS2 technical amazing, i know they don't look as good as many other games, but very few games on any platform has a gaming world of that size. I wonder if the DVD speed had an influence of the number of polygons, i mean, in order to be able to stream the actual data from the DVD vs the PS2 hardware limits. Would the PS2 be able to draw the polys faster than the drive can stream them and the texture?

 

[j^aws]

Thanks for link...GTASAs looking sweet! ...Geez, I 'can't believe they're using up all that disc space already on DVD's, prolly all sound tracks! I suppose it depends on the type of game...apart from GTASAs, are they're any other current gen games approaching that kind of disk space?

Well on Vice they used some heavy compression and the music still took up 1.37 GB. That is out of the 4.35 GB, i have a feeling they padded the rest of the data though.

I find the GTA series on PS2 technical amazing, i know they don't look as good as many other games, but very few games on any platform has a gaming world of that size. I wonder if the DVD speed had an influence of the number of polygons, i mean, in order to be able to stream the actual data from the DVD vs the PS2 hardware limits. Would the PS2 be able to draw the polys faster than the drive can stream them and the texture?

Yeah...GTA gets it's charm from the huge gameworld and the freedom it offers, which is rare in games these days. I've found myself driving for hours just 'exploring' and listening to their radio stations...there are some hilarious adverts on some of those!

The streaming DVD data bandwidth wasn't the limiting factor to gameworld size, I think the system memory at 32MB is the limiting factor. But our resident devs could possibly elaborate on this?

 

[j^aws]

PS3 Blu-Ray Disc Production Costs To Be Half Price Of Current DVDs?

Sony balances out EA's talk of pricey next-gen development

2nd Sep 2004

Following Electronic Arts’ recent declaration that the production cost involved in next-gen software development could be as much as 200% of present costs, Sony has made an interesting point about the manufacture of the discs themselves. This information certainly undermines EA’s more self-serving approximations, and paints a far more optimistic picture of the future state of the industry.

Of course, Sony is defending its own interests and wants potential investors to know that there are positive prospects for the PS3, but if what it says is true, it will be good news for many involved in the industry. Apparently, the Blu-Ray discs that the PS3 utilises will cost half of what present DVDs do. This effectively means that a full 25 gig PS3 project could be pressed for half the cost of a typical PS2 project: which would, to a certain extent, help lessen the blow of the increased development costs that EA has cited.

This cost-cutting is derived from the fact that glass plates usually used in DVD production can be replaced by cheaper silicone ones. The size of the machinery itself is also an estimated 20% of older DVD equipment, freeing up floor-space and reducing associated property costs.

As soon as any other titbits of next-gen information surface, you'll be the first to know.

Source

Some more good news if true... 8)

 

[-tkf-]

Some more good news if true... 8)

GTA: Vice City 2 is go!

 

[Wunderchu]

PS3 Blu-Ray Disc Production Costs To Be Half Price Of Current DVDs?

Sony balances out EA's talk of pricey next-gen development

2nd Sep 2004

Following Electronic Arts’ recent declaration that the production cost involved in next-gen software development could be as much as 200% of present costs, Sony has made an interesting point about the manufacture of the discs themselves. This information certainly undermines EA’s more self-serving approximations, and paints a far more optimistic picture of the future state of the industry.

Of course, Sony is defending its own interests and wants potential investors to know that there are positive prospects for the PS3, but if what it says is true, it will be good news for many involved in the industry. Apparently, the Blu-Ray discs that the PS3 utilises will cost half of what present DVDs do. This effectively means that a full 25 gig PS3 project could be pressed for half the cost of a typical PS2 project: which would, to a certain extent, help lessen the blow of the increased development costs that EA has cited.

This cost-cutting is derived from the fact that glass plates usually used in DVD production can be replaced by cheaper silicone ones. The size of the machinery itself is also an estimated 20% of older DVD equipment, freeing up floor-space and reducing associated property costs.

As soon as any other titbits of next-gen information surface, you'll be the first to know.

Source

Some more good news if true... 8)

nice

 

[ERP]

You realise of course that the DVD cost is a minimal part of the cost of goods right?

Unless Sony is talking about halfing licensing fee's, which I very much doubt, your talkign about a < 5% saving on cost of goods.

EA is also talking about cost to create the games, not to press the discs.

 

[PC-Engine]

This completely new disc manufacturing equipment isn't free and if I understand it correctly you can't convert existing DVD lines to Blu-ray without a significant cost increase. You basically have to buy new manufacturing equipment that can manufacture both BR and DVD so that doesn't really help much...

 

[cthellis42]

There's no way to make that statement. How much will the needed equipment cost? (And how much does it cost in comparison to pursuing other options?) How many years will the lines be in operation? How much more effective can the same sites be if they indeed don't need as much equipment to produce the same amount of disks?

I tend to think the equipment cost will be minimal in comparison to extended manufacturing savings (since that would likely be continuing for many years--else they wouldn't seriously bother changing their lines).

I do, however, agree with ERP in that Spong's offhanded comments have no real context. (But hey, they only say it halfheartedly anyway.) If EA predicts a 100% increase cost in bringing games to market and production costs only make up a few percent of the total project costs now... I mean, saving money is good, but it wouldn't override all other factors. We have no idea what it WOULD mean unless we could see some project breakdowns.

This will have much more effect on those who make a business on mass production of disks, not those people who spend the bulk on the data stored on them. Blank-media producers will be drooling, and certainly Hollywood likes lower production costs. But of course even this depends on "if it pans out that way" and "how will other options compare?"

 

[Panajev2001a]

This completely new disc manufacturing equipment isn't free and if I understand it correctly you can't convert existing DVD lines to Blu-ray without a significant cost increase. You basically have to buy new manufacturing equipment that can manufacture both BR and DVD so that doesn't really help much...

Say that the new Sony equipment that simplifies production so much does also speed up your DVD mastering times reducing the cost per each DVD.

You are not thinking about the possibility that maybe, just maybe the new mastering solution might attract buyers in two ways: possibility of producing Blu-Ray discs at a low cost and at the same time to reduce the DVD production costs.