Orson Scott Card speaks out on the War on Terror

[pax]

Good links that infortunetly dont support Demos position. Its obvious that demo went out on limb before verifying whether the oil deals france and others had included oil sales sharing which is something Iraq hadnt done since nationalization.

I love the right wing link that talks about 1\4 of all iraq's imports are from france instead of posting actual dollar numbers... This type of deception is common from them. French imports and exports to iraq number are in the low single digits of its overall trade and are insignificant.

The key here guys is whether any oil deal with saddam included oil sharing. Most of your links dont deal with that sabastian. And demo hasnt posted a single one to support his thesis... But I wont pull a 'legion' here... Ive looked and googled myself and cant find info relating to the exact nature of saddams' oil contracts.

If I do Ill certainly input blame on France and others for contributing like the US and brits have in saudi arabia to significant irritants in our relations with the arab world.

 

[DemoCoder]

Pax, I didn't go out on a limb. France's deals included Production Sharing Contracts. Look it up yourself. You're the one asserting French oil companies don't sell oil, so why don't you explain the predominent business model of TotalElf? I don't speak French, so I can find any links on Total/Elf's website, but I certainly can find lots of talk in google about TotalElf signing a PSC in 1997 with Iraq.

But Elf's business model is besides the point. The relevant issue here is your one-sided argument that Americans are influenced by oil profits and the French aren't. Since TotalElf is France's largest employer and most profitable company, I find it somewhat disingenous that you are asking us to believe that:

1) TotalElf's overseas deals aren't an important policy factorin French government decisions. Since the French government spends alot of effort to rescue much smaller manufacturing and farming firms, call me a skeptic, if you want me to believe that a deal to develop 20-30 billion barrel oil fields doesn't have the attention of politicians, yet somehow, a crappy materialis company, or a small AirBus contract is much more important.


2) Elf is currently embroiled in a scandal over bribery and connections to French politicians

3) And finally, oil companies, we come to find out, don't sell oil from frields they developed, but are nothing more than construction companies. Remind me to tell the Wall Street Journal

4) YET, we are expected to reason that the French Government has no concern over Elf's success or failure in Iraq, and moreover, that Elf is a more moral and ethical company than American and British oil companies

5) But also, while the French are clean, moral, and nice, the American and British oil companies, unlike French counterparts, actuall do sell oil, which they rape and pillage from middle eastern countries, and that the American government cares far more about getting oil in Iraq then French and Russian firms,

BUT

6) We also have no evidence of the American companies taking over Iraq oilfriends, on the country, the oil fields have remained state run (in reality, Joint Ventures, which you still refuse to believe) and will continue to be state run.

I find your attempt to paint the Americans as immoral oil thirtsy barons, and the French as ethical oil developers as repugant, and that is the central reason I took you up in this thread, because of the two sided nature of your arguments.

You have one set of standards for the Americans, and another set for the French. You swat away claims of French backdoor dealing, and dismiss everything out of hand easily, but any speculation on secret American plans passes right through you and out of your mouth without criticism.


If Production Sharing Contracts are a figment of a my imagination, and oil companies don't own equity in the oil fields they develop, and do not, in fact, get a share of the crude oil which they sell, I would like you to correct me by delineating what the hell the business model of oil companies really is then.

 

[pax]

Posts are a bit long for the subject... what was the percentage in the oil sales sharing?... Ive no doubt elf has oil sales sharing contracts eleswhere but Im only interested in Iraq for now...

My point in this thread taken up for the last year isnt to paint black and white picture between us and france or others. If youd read carefuly it was relating to the irritants that exist between mideast and west. If elf or others are responsible in the mideast for saudi type scams I would have thought the articles that scrutinized such deals last winter would have made mention of them.

If they didnt its because they either are insignificant contracts next to the huge saudi scams or arent of the same nature. As for your accusation of me portraying european firms as angels vs demonized us firms I did no such. And its doubly more hypocritical of you as sabastian made such a post in this thread with you making no mention. So much for your objectivity here.

Your attitude following that of trying to legitimize the saudi scams flies in the face of much more authoritative scrutiny than yours. Oil sales sharing is a case by case thing. If you cant look past your anti gov pro biz ideological agenda even in the face of the most obvious scams you make yourself look pretty bad...

Tell me demo are there any business deals by us (or any other business for that matter) firms that dont meet your standard of legitimacy?

edit: The oil sales sharing plan isnt the only one in existence demo. There are plenty of countries with nationalized oil, like Iraq had previously and technically still has, where foreign firms were merely contracted for expertise and infrastructure which included a bidding process and fair profit margins for the work done.

Many countries got smart counseling when it came to developping their ressources and some chose to share risk and some chose not to. Under corrupt regimes like Saudi Arabia's it was clear to experts worldwide that their accessbility to the oil and ease of exploitation and relative assurance of the size of the discovered fields required no risk sharing.

The same goes for Iraq. Its oil fields are easy to exploit and well studied that there is no risk to bear here as to justify sales and investment sharing. Im sure elf has tried to scam its way into such deals I dont think a single oil firm hasnt. The deals with corrupt regimes are incredibly profitable.

What you have failed to show me is whether the contracts saddam had with elf and others had specific sales sharing agreements. I certainly cant find info. If I do come across such Ill certainly go back and say that such amounts of $ must have had huge political bearing on the politics of those european countries if such amounts are significant.

But that depends on percentages involved... if you find something modest in the 5-10%. Ill be hard to agree with your moral equivalence of the saudi scams at 50-50...