NVnews fun....

[Doomtrooper]

Although I've never been impressed with the NV30 I must say they have done a excellent job on the Nforce 2..a very powerful chipset and currently the best AMD solution out there..
Problem is AMD market share is so small...and should be bigger.

 

[Slides]

Although I've never been impressed with the NV30 I must say they have done a excellent job on the Nforce 2..a very powerful chipset and currently the best AMD solution out there..
Problem is AMD market share is so small...and should be bigger.

And as disappointed as I am with the FX so far, Nvidia better not go out of business because the nforce2 rocks!

 

[Sharkfood]

People here really do seem to be more interested is cheering on companies, and less interested in actually fairly assessing them and the tech.

Only if one's definition of "fairly" just so happens to equate to an "NVIDIA can do no evil" mentality, apparently.

Threads of commentary that quote the source explaining the Nv30 is large, loud and comments concerning air draw from outside the case are obviously being "unfair" or otherwise not pro-NVIDIA. That's the whole point- commentary doesn't HAVE to be pro-NVIDIA, it can be fair and maintain no preference, just exploring the facts with data presented.

Just look at the other threads, people don't even neccessarily care if the two cards have similar performance this generation. I guess they'd be happy if NV goes out of business.

From the massive time between, it IS unfair to call these cards of the same generation. This will be even more evident if ATI is able to spit shine the R350 in time to get it's launch in March, which is when the NV30 is supposed to hit the retail shelves in quantity. They have been enjoying R300 sales for over 6 months now (including pre-order period).

The fact that so many R300 reviews a long time ago were obviously tainted with "but wait for the NV30 since it's going to be SO much faster and better!" (*cough* Anand *cough*) are not the fault of the people posting here when they point out how wrong they feel these sentiments have panned out. When a marketing machine and it's followers build up expectations to such a high-degree and do so continually for an extended period of time, it really doesnt matter WHAT is actually finally delivered, it's going to miss the expectations of some.

This is the cost of doing marketing in such a way. I've said it for years that you dont over-hype a product or make promises that you can't deliver. It forces a company to lose confidence and trust with it's consumers and no amount of sympathizers trying to create a "bright side" can reverse broken expectations. Such efforts may thwart SOME initial sales from competitors, but if delivery isnt then up to snuff, then those same people will be lost forever and such ploys stop having the same effectiveness. It's only a matter of time when such tactics stop working entirely.. (i.e. fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice.. ).

 

[nutball]

From the massive time between, it IS unfair to call these cards of the same generation.

I don't agree. Surely a generation should be defined by when the part is intended to launch, as this is largely what defines its capabilities. NV30 was supposed to launch at about the same time as R300, so they are the same "generation". They are both the first-generation DX9 parts from either company, so they are the same generation.

That fact that NV30 is late makes no difference, because to all intents and purposes its capabilities were set in stone quite some time ago.

 

[Tahir2]

ps a bit off topic but what were the main features included in fx from the 3dfx team. just curious. too lazy to search right now.

To answer this question first there needs to be another fanboi war of approximately 20 pages.

Let me start.. 3dfx inclusion = delayed the product, overhyped it, made it too hot to run using conventional cooling, started making their 'on boards' to ensure quality (ahem), gave it an external power source even though they are on a better process, overclocked the GPU so much so they can guarantee they are faster in 8 out of 10 benchmarks and erm they installed a new coffee air conditioning unit in the engineering department.

Looks like I lied about the bolded bit (and prolly the rest too heh):

TT - Is it true that all GeForce FX cards will be manufactured by nVidia, much like what ATi has done in the past?

nV - The NVIDIA business model has not changed. We are not producing boards.

http://forums.tweaktown.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7998

 

[antlers]

I think it's only going to get worse Monday

A true prediction--now Chalnoth is a very lonely voice. We need Username in here to give him a hand

 

[Doomtrooper]

No reason to leave though

 

[RussSchultz]

I think it's only going to get worse Monday

A true prediction--now Chalnoth is a very lonely voice. We need Username in here to give him a hand

And you've summed up exactly what Democoder is so disgusted with: The partisan discussions that are rampant here.

Apparently, its impossible to not be on a 'side'. Why even join the discussion if you're simply going to be labled an adversary?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

And you've summed up exactly what Democoder is so disgusted with: The partisan discussions that are rampant here.

Partisan discussions are rampant everywhere. And democoder was no exception to being a part of them here.

I'll tell you what I think DC's problem really is. (Though he's free to argue against it if if wants, of course.)

"His team", for the first time, is being a victim of nvidiot fans. THEY are now "turning against" nVidia. Just take a look at NVNews.
(To be clear, I'm not saying nvidiots are worse than fanATIcs.) What I'm saying is, there's this "lashing out" at nVidia now, for the pretty STUPID reason that "nVidia let us down! This new card doesn't kick ATI'S Ass!"

And when the masses start to get this attitude, that's when everything just gets blown WAY out of proportion. And DC just doesn't want to face the multitude of bullsh*t that's sure to come. I don't really blame him, but in all honesty, I think if the tables were turned, and ATI was getting hammered, DC would still be here.

We witnessed the same thing happen with the VSA-100 / GeForce / GeForce GTS era. The public pretty much turned on 3dfx almost instantly. Why? Because the product did not meet expectations of the masses no matter how high or unreasonable those expectations may have been.

I think I may have underestimated the possible reprocussions of the GeForceFX "launch." The expectations for the FX were so high, and the "fans" (read: masses) feel "so betrayed" that in one single day, I can feel the public sentiment start to move to ATI.

The "nVidia Brand" is in big trouble. And that can cause a major impact.

There are two things that contributed to the super-high expectations of FX.

1) Bullsh*t hype. Sites like Anand talking up the NV30 months before the thing was even taped out. Other things like vague benchmark references released by nVidia themselves.

2) Radeon 9700. Naturally, when the competition puts out a kick-ass product, the natural instinct of the masses to to assume the competitor's next product will just kick more ass. Just because it has to. Nevermind any consideration of if it's even possible...

If there's any good news for nVidia in all this: is that "the masses" can be swayed back in another instant. Desptite all the "fanboy rhetoric", all the "nVidia is a crap company" talk going on, the masses tend to go where the products are best. So "all nVidia has to do" to start getting the mindshare back....is to build a clearly superior product.

3dfx never got that chance, and it thus folded.

nVidia isn't anywhere near in that type of dire situation of course. However, one or two more cycles of nVidia not being perceived as haveing the best products, and all the sudden it will be ATI reaping in higher profit margins as the OEMs want to have "ATI Inside" in their boxes, and will be willing to pay a small premium for it.

 

[RussSchultz]

Right there: "His team".

He's not any team, yet he's incessantly painted that way. Disagreeing with somebody's statements or unreasonable accusations does not make you on a team.

But of course, I'm on a "team" also, and I'm just defending a "team mate". Feh. Fuck that.

(And yes, the adolescence of the discussions is tough to wade through at the moment. All the meat of the information is buried in a partisan feeding frenzy)

 

[antlers]

If it wasn't for partisanship, there'd only be about 10% of the people here reading this board (some would say that would be a good thing...)

Lots of people are interested in 3d because they want to understand the many facets of the technology, or as a buying guide, but some people also kind of watch the struggle between the competitors (technically and business-wise) the way you might watch a football match. It's just more interesting when you have a rooting interest in one side--and I maintain that there is nothing wrong with that.

I will agree that benign fanboism too often descends into hooliganism. People come to this board which has a very technical bent to get away from mindless fan forums, but it is unrealistic to expect there to be no partisanship.

Arguments are necessary, if only because some of the most interesting facts and theories come up in arguments. I wish everyone could argue without imputing dishonesty or stupidity to the other side. The very lowest marketing usually goes is "crafty", and even major decisions that seem like huge blunders in hindsight were usually made by very smart people working with very limited information.

I can understand people's frustration when they end up having arguments with people who are rude, tireless, and/or don't have a clue about what they are talking about. Sometimes its best to let the ignorant have the last word.

(And having said that, I don't expect any further replies)

 

[Typedef Enum]

I cannot speak for anybody else, but I've been down on the FX ever since the paper launch. The fact that they basically were using the same ole' rehashed Antialiasing methods was a severe letdown for me, as I fully expected them to leverege at least _some_ of the 3dfx tech in this particular area.

Furthermore, once it became clear that they were pinning their hopes on DDR2 and NOT implementing a wider bus, I knew this one was not going to turn out too well.

With the exception of their "beyond DX9 specs" claim, it was like...Well, there already existed a part in the 9700 that could give you what most people want right now...and I just knew that certain things like AA was going to superior to anything that the FX had to offer.

I cannot honestly claim to have "turned" on nVidia. There have been many things, over the years, that I've been dissapointed in, with regards to their tech, certain decisions, etc.

Heck, not only did a representative of nVidia claim that 4xS AA would be implemented in OpenGL last year, but I received confirmation from a certain person within the company that it was, indeed, forthcoming...and that was like 8-9 months ago. I was pretty pissed that it was just scrapped, and never acknowledged one way or another.

I seem to recall those last Detonator drivers proving to be nothing more than Quake3/3DMark improvements...and nothing more. I was real dissapointed in that they were making claims that, for all intents and purposes, were marketing ploys to detract (unsuccessfully I might add) the launch of the 9700.

I really do believe that many of the fan sites are all about the tech. If it's good, then they'll generally give them high marks...If it's crap, then so be it. Hardware review sites, OTOH, are a different animal, IMHO. I cannot tell you how many times a certain website has done one of these moves...

"As you can see, this one just destroys that one. Yes, that 1200 3DMark difference was very obvious and clear. A new winner has been pronounced! It certainly warrants that $399 pricetag, as you can see."

It will be interesting to see what lies ahead with nVidia in the coming months.

 

[demalion]

It is possible to address the hyperbole and selective reading resulting from partisanship without necessitating adopting those qualities yourself. Whether partisanship is the reason or not, those qualities are not conducive to reasonable discussion.
Neither is dividing the board into an alternative partisanship where one reason for exhibiting these "qualities" (various forms of elitism) is valid, and another (vendor favoritism) is not.

Two further points:

• My problem with DemoCoder is not necessarily for partisanship (though I would maintain in many cases such is exhibited and is the cause) but with exhibiting these faults of selective reading/blindess and/or hyperbole.
  
• In a recent example of exhibiting just those faults, DemoCoder explicitly specified himself as part of a "team" including you (Russ) and Chalnoth, and stating he hadn't seen "immature hyperbole" (I believe the phrase was) from that "side". Joe's use of "side" in a phrase to describe DemoCoder's stance is not something pulled out of thin air.

 

[Mark]

It will be interesting to see what lies ahead with nVidia in the coming months.

and, of course, how ATI responds to the less than stellar GFFX reviews. The Game Dev Conference is coming up in early March, I bet we see something there.

 

[Humus]

Am I the only one (or one of the very few) that never perceived DemoCoder to be in the "nVidia camp" or something along that line?
Just because he defended GFFX from time to time doesn't make him a nVidia fanboi, he defended the 9700 against silly claims just as much. He's one of the few balanced guys around. Everything with the GFFX isn't horrible.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

Hi Guys,

I don't post terribly often, but I've been reading the forums for years, and I thought I'd pipe in with a bit of an observation.

First, is that as other people have said, even if you are trying to be non-partisan, there is almost surely a vendor or product that you favor at any given time than others. That may even switch over time, and really there is nothing wrong with having an opinion one way or the other.

Having said that, the thing I see as being the most problematic on this board is not the favoratism that people show for any given company or product, but the tendency for people to think that what they believe (no matter if they are on either side, or are claiming non-partisanship) is right. The people who claim to be non-partisan in some ways are the worst, because many use it to be-little anyone who makes it clear that they have a preference either way. The sad thing is, that I think a number of these people are very smart, and could probably make arguements favoring their position, but are afraid to be labeled as "fan boys" and instead hang onto this notion of non-partisanship and use it as a weapon to attack people who they disagree with.

For anyone that claims non-partisanship, look at who you argue with most, and what you think of them. It probably gives you pretty good insight as to where you sit. In the same vein, if you present logical and insightful arguements, it really doesn't matter if you favor one side. The people who matter (the ones that are insightful enough to listen to what you have to say) are going to be much more impressed with a solid and convincing arguement than rhetoric and insults.

Nite_Hawk

 

[Randell]

Am I the only one (or one of the very few) that never perceived DemoCoder to be in the "nVidia camp" or something along that line?

IMO DC was very pro ATI and the R300 right from launch, he was pretty OK about the 8500 as well. Prior to that he was pretty much pro nVidia and down on 3dfx's later products (especially the V5 due to the lack of things in it to excite a coder).

Now I first interpreted that in 2000 as nVidia fanboyism, but thats because I was looking at it from the wrong angle - he wasnt looking at it as a consumer but as a coder who wanted to play with the latest tech.

Now it appears defending nVidia from rampant fanboyism is seen as fanboyism (as is defending ATI from unfair fanboyism) and DC did get caught up in arguements he could easily have left alone thus helping to maintain the noise he complained about - again IMO.

 

[antlers]

I can understand that from a developer's point of view, the increased power of the FX shaders is very exciting, and you'd want that model to be a success, and to spur other vendors into adopting that model.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

Humus:

I guess I don't know for sure, but it seemed to me that he argued with a lot of the people who favor ATI a lot more than he argued with the people who favor nvidia. It could be that he favored Nvidia, it could be that he perhaps doesn't cheer for the underdog (no matter who), or it could be that he just happened out of coincidence to argue with the more pro ATI guys. Still, it gives the impression that he (atleast on some level) currently favors Nvidia more so than ATI.

He also fell to the level of name calling and be-littling the people he was arguing with at times, and that may have made his position seem a lot more extreme to the people that disagreed with him. Still, he was insightful in many of his posts, so it's a shame that he's decided to leave.

Nite_Hawk

 

[Basic]

Humus:
No you're not the only one.
I also consider him as one of the most balanced here. Whenever I saw him pull hard towards "the nVidia camp", he was actually pulling the discussion towards a more reasonable level. It's just that the vector from the point those discussions were to the reasonable point had approximately the same direction as a vector from the discussions to the nVidia camp.

The length of those vectors were quite different though, but that might be difficult to see if you're standing in "the ATI camp".

Russ has a similar status in my mind.