Doomtrooper
Veteran
Check your PM Humus
NVnews fun....
- Thread starter WaltC
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This is the point that draws my attention. NVNews has been the same way. As has Rage3D.. as has 3DGPU's forums.. etc.etc.etc.
It all comes down to one's perception of the situation, which is what colors judgement.
People react to different things in a different matter. If a plane crashes and 200+ people die, you wouldnt consider forums everywhere buzzing with how tragic this occurence is to be "unbalanced"- and you wouldn't expect a 50/50 spread of folks thinking it's a good thing versus a bad thing.
The fact that you see a consensus of forums discussing the size, heat, and performance of the NV30 in a negative light versus the R300 is simply not a matter of "imbalance"- but a matter of what the current (albeit extremely limited) information yields. Yeah, there is a percentage of troll posts in each thread, but that percentage hasnt changed and exists on any forum.
To equate negative commentary with a negative situation and thus labeling it as 'hate' is not justified, IMO. It's simply "balanced" people expressing their opinion on such a negative situation.
Humus said:Balanced membership?
This board have never been more unbalanced. I see Chalnoth fighting alone with just a few guys prehaps adding a line or two of support occasionally.
...
He left because there are too few reasonable people around. This board has been nothing but an ATi promoting and nVidia hating site the last few months. I expect this from the Rage3D forums, it's an ATi fansite, but not around here. If there's no balanced discussions going on here I fully understand him if he things there's no longer a point of contributing here. He understood that what the GFFX would perform in the reviews were only going to make it worse. And he was right.
I couldn't agree more.
Edit: Maybe i should add that the main problem that i have is that the majority of the Nvidia hating people seems to have a very low interest in technology. I will f.e never forget Russ's post about Cg some time ago where he specifically begged for answers only of technical nature. Which i think is reasonable in a board with people that are game coders, driver developers and so forth. Now, that discussion (which could have been very interesting) pretty much stopped with the first reply he got. And it have only become worse after that.
Humus said:
I dont think that is really fair - there are tons of reasonable members on this forum. It's just that some folks are extremely vocal about things that too few people care about (but they apparently care extremely strongly about).
On a side note: I want folks like SA back, dammit!
Humus said:
To clarify:
Would your use of "softer words" have resulted in you criticizing the pointlessness of the thread, yet avoiding labelling everyone making comments a fanboi for being concerned about the reports of noisiness and concerns about the complexity of the cooler assembly (EDIT: and making an assertion that "your side" never exhibited such behavior)?
If so, can you see that I said the same thing in that post as your bolded statement above?
Finally, granting both of the above, can you see that my criticism results from the observation that as far DemoCoder is concerned in the particular discussions I am criticizing, which are not every single DemoCoder discussion (believe it or not, I'm not a full-time DemoCoder basher), he is always right, in all particulars, including the practice of insulting and labelling those who disagree?
I can for example point out that I tend to support most of Russ' criticism of thread derailment since he has for a while kept them concise and pointed, and seems to have mastered avoiding doing more harm than good in most cases.
Point out where you and I part ways in our view of the above, if we do.
Sharkfood said:
Yes, the 9700 kicked nVidia's butt, and the GFFX failed. Sure it's expected to see a move towards ATi in here. But is not just that, how many threads do you see regarding dustbusters, heat, noise ala airplane etc? How many thread do you see about it's possitive attributes? Why do people get flamed for highlighting anything possitive about the GFFX? In times like this guys like DemoCoder is essential for setting this forum apart from normal fansite forums. This forum used to be the place where we discussed the good and bad of highly technical stuff, not where we point finger at each other labelling people for sitting in a certain company's camp.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Yes, that's the way to foster discussion and openly about differences in opinion. Good Job, Russ. That's almost as effective as just leaving.
Correct. And yet, you seem to make the assumption that the underlying problem is not with DC, but with the rest of the board.
May I suggest that it's likely a combination of the two? Though in the end,
And why should DC, not personally attached or biased toward a company of course, care if there are rabid snipes toward its products? Correcting false data / statements is one thing, but being upset about posts taking shots at "dustbuster" cooling solutions is something entirely different.
So. What makes you stay?
nVidia is certainly going to have a lot more stupid accusations and fanboyishness against them after this launch. That's the nature of the beast. People combating "endless declarations of fanboyishness and stupid accusations" toward 3dfx have had to put up with it. Same with ATI. Now, apparently, it's nVidia's turn. It's out. The perception is, that the FX is a total and utter flop. Who cares if you put two people in front of two different computers (OK, with Ear Plugs), you couldn't get them to guess which card is in which PC correctly. The perception is out there....the NVIDIA fanboys have spoken on the matter.
The heat is up now because the launch is fresh. Just like it always happens. Give it a few weeks and it will settle down to a "dull roar", the fan jokes will become fewer (though they won't go away) just as always. Things will settle back down to normal, with the exception that now, there will be tons and tons of bullsh*t rhetoric about the "crap quality" of the FX hardware and its drivers....instead of ATI getting the brunt.
That's the only thing that has changed here.
I will only say that thinking yourself superior to another and then brandishing everyone else a fanboi as well as putting words/statements into the mouths of other companies makes you what you hate most - a fanboi.
And no matter how intelligent Democoder was/is, no matter how elegantly he/she could argue his/her point for several times over and over again, the above is actually not what let him/her down the most IMHO. He believed/believes he/she was/is the middleman/woman - but when you begin to do the above and not realise it you are no longer a fanboi even, but you just have managed to conceit and cheat yourself.
Now if anyone disagrees I dont care. Democoder is around and if he/she wishes to defend themselves then let them do it right here in front of anyone and everyone.
Other than that I think Democoder was/is a fine human being and if he/she can't see that the very people he/she was arguing/debating with would consider him/her a friend then it is up to him/her if he/she left.
Now can someone please tell me if Democoder was male or female as I have no idea.. (some friend I turned out to be...)
And no matter how intelligent Democoder was/is, no matter how elegantly he/she could argue his/her point for several times over and over again, the above is actually not what let him/her down the most IMHO. He believed/believes he/she was/is the middleman/woman - but when you begin to do the above and not realise it you are no longer a fanboi even, but you just have managed to conceit and cheat yourself.
Now if anyone disagrees I dont care. Democoder is around and if he/she wishes to defend themselves then let them do it right here in front of anyone and everyone.
Other than that I think Democoder was/is a fine human being and if he/she can't see that the very people he/she was arguing/debating with would consider him/her a friend then it is up to him/her if he/she left.
Now can someone please tell me if Democoder was male or female as I have no idea..
(some friend I turned out to be...)Humus,
OK I hear you, but moving on based on that statement:
Who is getting flamed for highlighting positive things about the GF FX? I hope you don't equate something like Chalnoth's "the GF FX is the obvious choice for high resolution gaming" with "highlighting something positive"?
Hey, I'm all for you getting results back from Brent who seems willing to run some of your demos on the GF FX and you opening a discussion on how excellent the performance is (which is the outcome I'd expect) relative to the 9700.
I'm also all for Rightmark 3D discussion when it is available, and expect excellent relative performance in many (pixel shader focused at the least) tests for the GF FX as well.
I'm also of the opinion that shader optimization is the most valid improvement expectation in the months ahead (for both cards, though I foresee the nv30 having more possible potential), though my reservations in regard to the GF FX are concerning how many situations for which its advantages will allow performance increase (though its clock rate advantage, with pixel shading atleast, seems to make excelling in this regard likely in any case).
Do you really think someone would be flamed for starting such threads?
I'm with Joe, I think it just so happens that the situation has quieted down with ATI criticism directly related to ATI having executed so well, and nVidia having executed relatively poorly to this point.
OK I hear you, but moving on based on that statement:
Who is getting flamed for highlighting positive things about the GF FX? I hope you don't equate something like Chalnoth's "the GF FX is the obvious choice for high resolution gaming" with "highlighting something positive"?
Hey, I'm all for you getting results back from Brent who seems willing to run some of your demos on the GF FX and you opening a discussion on how excellent the performance is (which is the outcome I'd expect) relative to the 9700.
I'm also all for Rightmark 3D discussion when it is available, and expect excellent relative performance in many (pixel shader focused at the least) tests for the GF FX as well.
I'm also of the opinion that shader optimization is the most valid improvement expectation in the months ahead (for both cards, though I foresee the nv30 having more possible potential), though my reservations in regard to the GF FX are concerning how many situations for which its advantages will allow performance increase (though its clock rate advantage, with pixel shading atleast, seems to make excelling in this regard likely in any case).
Do you really think someone would be flamed for starting such threads?
I'm with Joe, I think it just so happens that the situation has quieted down with ATI criticism directly related to ATI having executed so well, and nVidia having executed relatively poorly to this point.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
I was about to ask the same question....
Joe DeFuria said:
Whatever. You're free to have your opinion, but I'd rather you not to re-iterate it to me unless it changes. Endlessly repeating an opinion is not open discussion. Since its "obvious in your opinion", you're going to put us in these pigeon holes, no matter what we say. If you really want to have that discussion, just assume I always respond with "No, I'm not", so you can continue the discussion.
Maybe people don't want to have to wade through that sophomoric tripe to actually have a discussion? Would you like to participate in a discussion about the probllems in the middle east and have some idiot constantly harp on 'those ragheads' or 'those fucking kikes', but if you ask him to stop he calls you a 'jew-lover' or 'camel-fucker'? What about discussing which automobile to buy next and have to put up with your idiot cousin who keeps calling Fords "fucked over rebuilt Dodges".
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not.
The same reason I play golf: Every once in a while I hit that perfect tee-off and that makes the entire round worth it. Doesn't mean I like shanking the ball time and time again, now does it?
Demalion, I didn't say that. Here is my exact quote:demalion said:
Now, I thought I was pretty complete in that statement, and I'm amazed at how many people have twisted it to mean other things. I see what I stated, if you take it as a whole, as just that, highlighting something positive (out of the FX's failure to match the R9700's FSAA).
I also stated that for older games, the FSAA quality and performance of the FX are of less importance, as it will look good and be fast no matter what. The real differences will be seen in more fillrate-limited games.
Humus:
When you mentioned that Chalnoth was the only one defending the FX right now, do you think that his arguements have been valid? Are you willing to defend the FX for instance, and in what cases?
There are some cases I'd be willing to defend the FX in. If someone for instance claimed that the 9700pro was clearly faster than the FX in all cases, I'd say that was false. If someone were to say that it's lacking in features and directx support (in hardware) I'd also say that was false. I think most of the people in this conversation would probably say the same things.
The thing is though, no one is really making these arguements. Everyone is talking about things like the FX FLOW cooling solution, their AA/Anisotropic implementations, and the price. If no one is comming to Nvidia's defense in these situations, perhaps it means these are some fairly legitamate concerns?
I mean no disrespect, but if you feel that the FX isn't getting a fair shake in any of the threads here (most of which are talking about specific issues) then you should state why you think they aren't fairly evaluating it. If you think the FX has good points, you should start a thread about what they are and why you think they matter. Perhaps with your development background you could talk about some of the things you find exciting about the card. I know I would certainly be interested in hearing your thoughts on what kind of things it will be capable of in the future.
Nite_Hawk
When you mentioned that Chalnoth was the only one defending the FX right now, do you think that his arguements have been valid? Are you willing to defend the FX for instance, and in what cases?
There are some cases I'd be willing to defend the FX in. If someone for instance claimed that the 9700pro was clearly faster than the FX in all cases, I'd say that was false. If someone were to say that it's lacking in features and directx support (in hardware) I'd also say that was false. I think most of the people in this conversation would probably say the same things.
The thing is though, no one is really making these arguements. Everyone is talking about things like the FX FLOW cooling solution, their AA/Anisotropic implementations, and the price. If no one is comming to Nvidia's defense in these situations, perhaps it means these are some fairly legitamate concerns?
I mean no disrespect, but if you feel that the FX isn't getting a fair shake in any of the threads here (most of which are talking about specific issues) then you should state why you think they aren't fairly evaluating it. If you think the FX has good points, you should start a thread about what they are and why you think they matter. Perhaps with your development background you could talk about some of the things you find exciting about the card. I know I would certainly be interested in hearing your thoughts on what kind of things it will be capable of in the future.
Nite_Hawk
Joe DeFuria
Legend
I will keep reiterating it in a public forum, so long as you address my posts in a public forum with point that I feel need to be responded to.
And maybe some people's definition of "sophomoric tripe" has a much broader, (or rather selective, depending on how you look at it), scope.
Yes, there are things we all consider "tripe." The mods here do a pretty good job of stopping things when they get THAT bad. There are things that some get a good chuckle out of, and others get furious over. You of all people I figured would be supportive of more leniency and freedom, and less moderation.
Pretty harsh terms you used there, Russ. I don't recall anyone calling DC a DustBuster Fucker or anything remotely as offensive. But if someone is of the opinion that he is biased, is that grounds in and of itself for moderating the discussion?
And yet...you still play golf, right? Despite that fact that 17 of 18 tee shots are shanks. Why? Because it's a challenge. Because despite some of the crap, the good things make it worth it.
To apply your analogy...I simply submit that DC simply has a lower tolerance for shanks than most of us. At the same time, I believe he fails to recognize that he himself causes a few shanks. This board still offers more "perfect tee shots to shanks" than all the other boards I know on this subject matter.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Let me restate.
Which "positive things" are they getting flamed over? When they do get "flamed" is it simply over positive things they say?
Which "positive things" are they getting flamed over? When they do get "flamed" is it simply over positive things they say?
Nite_Hawk said:
I don't agree with Chalnoth on everything, but right now I feel he is more open minded than several other members on this board.
Yes, I could defend the FX for several things. It's higher capabilities for instance, most important the long fragment shaders. I expect it to perform better in shader intensive application and I'm very interested in seeing such benchmarks etc. I think I've mentioned these things enough on this forum already. I don't feel like spamming it a lot to make it visible in the dustbuster noise.
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