Nvidia in 2003

I believe NV35 uses a 256-bit for three reasons...

1. They are developing a new PCB for it - why not just use the current board? I doubt the new design is required to allow higher clockspeeds with a 128-bit bus...

No, but a new design could mean a reduction in board layers, making it cheaper. The new PCB might be the PCB that NV30 "should" have, if nVidia had more time to design it. Also, if the NV35 has sorted out some power issues (low-k), they may be able to do without the fan, which could open up other opportunities for more cost effetive board lay-out.

2. DDR-II@>500MHz will still be *very* expensive by the summer. Considering the potential clockspeed gains that can be had by switching to a low-K fab process it would make no sense to starve a higher clocked ASIC by sticking with the same buswidth/clock as the 5800 Ultra.

No matter how much sense it makes from a practical standpoint, that might be all that they can do. It didn't make much sense to strap SDR memory on a Geforce256, and yet, there it was. It doesn't make sense to us that the GeForceFX "only" has a 128 bit bus...yet it exists.

3. A little birdie told me.

Duly noted. I just hope that's not the same birdie that told Anand that the NV30 would have a 256 bit bus. ;)
 
Joe DeFuria said:
I believe NV35 uses a 256-bit for three reasons...

1. They are developing a new PCB for it - why not just use the current board? I doubt the new design is required to allow higher clockspeeds with a 128-bit bus...

No, but a new design could mean a reduction in board layers, making it cheaper. The new PCB might be the PCB that NV30 "should" have, if nVidia had more time to design it.

LOL, I actually wrote something similar and then edited it out because I started to contradict my own point. I have no doubt that given time they could have reduced the number of layers to 8 or 10 - in fact, I think I said something to that effect in another thread earlier on today. Reason number three is the important one anyway, hehe...

MuFu.
 
No idea about dates, sorry. I'd guess March tapeout, June ramp. I wouldn't be suprised if R400 tapes out around March/April as well but it'll have a longer TTM from that point - new architecture, process change, new memory tech etc...

Does that sounds reasonable? :?

MuFu
 
Yeah, as much bandwidth as the big dogs have today (16 and 20 GB/Sec), it still is not the "max possible" with today's technology: pair the fastest ram with a 256 bit bus. Today, that would mean 32 GB/Sec. This fall, we're likely to be looking at 600 or 700 Mhz DDR, pulling theoretical bandwidth well over 40 GB/sec if a company can build a card that can successfully run the fastest memory available on a 256 bit bus.

It will be interesting to see which company gets there first.

The General consensus seems to be, that with 8 pixel pipelines, that is enough to satisfy a 256 bit wide bus at a synchronous frequency. So, this means either an 8 pipe chip running at 500Mhz +, or a 16 pipe chip running at half the frequency. Of course, with drastic changes in architecture, all bets are off. ;)

ATI has the following challenges:
* Move to 0.13u, and build a chip that has the fillrate to warrant that kind of bandwidth. (500Mhz + 8 pipe, or 300 Mhz+ 16 pipe.)
* Build a PCB that can handle those frequencies. (500 Mhz+)

nVidia has these challenges:
* Design a 256 bit bus for their chips.
* Redesign their 500 Mhz PCB to handle that bus.

I personally think ATI has the easier road at this point. Mostly because the R-300 has given me confidence in their ability to design complex chips with high clock frequencies for a given process. nVidia has not nearly impressed me as much with their ability to control power consumption and general PCB design.

I think the R-350 will fall short. I don't expect any faster than 400 Mhz DDR for ther R-350. NV35 (if MuFu is to be believed) has a chance, though I think R-400 has the best chance.
 
Of course not. It has nothing to fall short of. :LOL:

I think Joe meant fall short of his list of challenges, dude. Nice opportunity for ATi to "show off" a little, nevertheless.

MuFu.
 
R350 will not fall short.

Oh? So you're going on record saying the R350 will have at least 500 Mhz DDR-II ram on a 256 bit bus? Because that's what I'm referring to....using the fastest memory available on the widest bus.
 
Take a pill...you will see it soon enough...

I have a suggestion for some members here..grab a beer, have some fun with the wife...play with your kids.
 
I just asked you a simple question. No pills required. You said R350 won't fall short.

I want to make sure you actually mean to say what is implied. That is, you believe R350 will have 500 Mhz DDR Ram. Just asking for clarification.

Edit...Oh... and the wife and kids aren't home yet... ;)
 
Joe I can't say about anything I know :? I gave a good number for core clock speed and the answer was better..It should be close to your numbers IMO..which is amazing.

Seriously almost every thread here feels like you cut the tension with scissors.
 
Well, my numbers have nothing to do with core clock speed. I'm talking memory speed.

As we know, ATI can async. the core and clock. So even if the core is 500 Mhz, that doesn't mean the memory will also be there.
 
I was more concerned about core speed, 500 mhz DDR was qualified at Hynix in November...since 10 and 12 layer PCBs are going to be common that is not out of the question.
 
What's wrong with a reasonably priced R350 @ 400/400? :(
I mean you dont wanna push your current tech to its absolute limits now do you? ;)

magnum.jpg


I'm sorry you asked for it Magnum, I mean Mufu :p
 
I have always thought 400/400MHz but there is something *big* they've changed architecturally as well. It's starting to bug me now because I've been trying to find out what it is for ages, lol. o_O

MuFu.

P.S. How's it going misae?
brow.gif
 
This chart shows a good example of how the core and the memory reacted on the R300..now this was attained by just increasing the voltage...even just the core moving shows a significant gain.

t4.gif


Core/Clock increase +35%
Performance approx +35%
 
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