NVIDIA Game Works, good or bad?

[lanek]

Crysis 2 was never part of gameworks, gameworks wasn't even around then. Crytek made the tesselation code they didn't use any premade code from nV

And so what is this about again? If you only look at one or two objects that doesn't do anything. Unless your saying that one object is enough to crush AMD performance!

The engine doesn't force anything, but with default settings if a dev doesn't change the tessellation factors in the ini or cfg files, it will stay the same. Blaming this on nV is stupid for Huddy has nothing else he can do but point at nV because if he points at Crytek, you think Crytek will work well with AMD again?


http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Tessellation+and+Displacement

Tessellation even in Cry Engine 3 has limited factors but at each factor it is clearly visible that the highest setting looks better. You can also have different types of tessellation for even more detail, and tessellate shadows as well for increased realism, don't know how beneficial that would be in gaming but the feature is there.

Now the way the hull shader works, is it only gets data at certain times, so if there is one object or many objects being tessellated it won't really matter, but what matters is how much procedural geometry is created. In AMD's case it will stall the pipeline and this will also cause the shader array more pressure if complex shaders are being used at the same time.

1- 2 objects ? you should have goes on page 2 of the techreport articles They was at all time the water layer who was compute tesselation geometry, but not visible..

I dont know who was faulty for it..... And effectively that is an old story who should be separated of Gamework question.. This said, it was not the only TWIMTP games at this time where tesselation was strangely out of places, bringing a nice stall on AMD gpu's performances, ( HawX )..

 

[Razor1]

1- 2 objects ? you should have goes on page 2 of the techreport articles They was at all time the water layer who was compute tesselation geometry, but not visible..

I dont know who was faulty for it..... And effectively that is an old story who should be separated of Gamework question.. This said, it was not the only TWIMTP games at this time where tesselation was strangely out of places, bringing a nice stall on AMD gpu's performances, ( HawX )..

I already mentioned the water and why it is the way it is Its the way the engine was made, the water plane is not removable, well only way to remove it is if the clipping planes are activated by the distance of the camera. This is doable by making the land at a much higher height but that might have other adverse effects to raytrace systems for lighting, and other effects.

Making general wide range statements without understanding the underlying engine technology is something AMD's Huddy is trying to take advantage of, and seemed to have succeeded to some degree. He is using gamers naivety and blaming what ever he can on something I don't think he even understands...... If he does good for him but he himself is fooling end users.

 

[dogen]

I heard that the water under the ground was only shown in wireframe mode.

hmm
http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Debug+Views#DebugViews-Wireframe

 

[firstminion]

Crysis 2 was never part of gameworks, gameworks wasn't even around then. Crytek made the tesselation code they didn't use any premade code from nV

And so what is this about again? If you only look at one or two objects that doesn't do anything. Unless your saying that one object is enough to crush AMD performance!

The engine doesn't force anything, but with default settings if a dev doesn't change the tessellation factors in the ini or cfg files, it will stay the same. Blaming this on nV is stupid for Huddy has nothing else he can do but point at nV because if he points at Crytek, you think Crytek will work well with AMD again?


http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Tessellation+and+Displacement

Tessellation even in Cry Engine 3 has limited factors but at each factor it is clearly visible that the highest setting looks better. You can also have different types of tessellation for even more detail, and tessellate shadows as well for increased realism, don't know how beneficial that would be in gaming but the feature is there.

Now the way the hull shader works, is it only gets data at certain times, so if there is one object or many objects being tessellated it won't really matter, but what matters is how much procedural geometry is created. In AMD's case it will stall the pipeline and this will also cause the shader array more pressure if complex shaders are being used at the same time.

In the end we still get a ______ concrete slab, nvidia benefits from that ______ concrete slab and AMD is again ridiculed by pointing out that a ______ concrete slab is ______.

While we can't complain that a ______ concrete slab, like ______ batman capes and ______ water planes, are ______ because "they were meant to be like that!".

While we can't point out how that ______ concrete slabs, capes and water planes benefits nvidia over AMD because "it's all the developers fault" and "how dare we infer nvidia have any influence over developers!"

While we can't point out how those ______ assets relate to gameworks because they "all happened before gameworks ever existed" and "how dare we infer that history will repeat itself when nvidia writes the actual code!"

"How dare we say that a company would ever pressure someone to do something that harms it's competitor!"

AMD should make ______ concrete slab FX! Nvidia should add tessellatedFloor to gameworks!

Still in the end a ______ concrete slab will remain ______ and we can't even say that out loud.

 

[Razor1]

I heard that the water under the ground was only shown in wireframe mode.

hmm
http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Debug+Views#DebugViews-Wireframe

the water is one plane and doesn't have pieces, FOV culling doesn't work with it because of this. Not sure about Cry Engine 3 in this regard if they are using a new type of culling like per pixel, but I don't think its likely because the amount of branching and computational power to search and validate on every pixel would be pretty expensive and probably out weights the cost of the potential overdraw performance hit.

 

[Razor1]

In the end we still get a ______ concrete slab, nvidia benefits from that ______ concrete slab and AMD is again ridiculed by pointing out that a ______ concrete slab is ______.

While we can't complain that a ______ concrete slab, like ______ batman capes and ______ water planes, are ______ because "they were meant to be like that!".

While we can't point out how that ______ concrete slabs, capes and water planes benefits nvidia over AMD because "it's all the developers fault" and "how dare we infer nvidia have any influence over developers!"

While we can't point out how those ______ assets relate to gameworks because they "all happened before gameworks ever existed" and "how dare we infer that history will repeat itself when nvidia writes the actual code!"

"How dare we say that a company would ever pressure someone to do something that harms it's competitor!"

AMD should make ______ concrete slab FX! Nvidia should add tessellatedFloor to gameworks!

Still in the end a ______ concrete slab will remain ______ and we can't even say that out loud.

I don't know what exactly you are saying can you type normally?

from what I gather from this malarkey is yes an IHV can ask a developer do something in a certain way but its up to the Dev to agree with it. I can say we have been asked from both sides do things in certain ways in the past but never did them. Crytek is one of those companies that does not agree with an IHV if its going to possible hurt the sale of a product to the half of their consumer group.

 

[firstminion]

I don't know what exactly you are saying can you type normally?

from what I gather from this malarkey is yes an IHV can ask a developer do something in a certain way but its up to the Dev to agree with it. I can say we have been asked from both sides do things in certain ways in the past but never did them. Crytek is one of those companies that does not agree with an IHV if its going to possible hurt the sale of a product to the half of their consumer group.

There's always an excuse that seems to "explain it" but the issue keeps reappearing, hurting customers (sometimes even from both sides).

At the same time, AMD (and developers that worked on it) started what is now Vulkan/DX12 and it's almost like they have to excuse themselves.

 

[lanek]

He i will aggree with this ..

The first time ( or first game ) it is an hasard, the second a coincidence, the third it start to be questionnable .... dont know what we can think after all the games developped in collaboration with Nivida ( gamework or TWIMTP ) who end with extraordinary problem of performance, on AMD side.

Hopefully, it is not the case for all...

 

[Razor1]

Cry Engine 2 was already done well before Dx11 cards were out, the engine was for the most part complete for Crysis 2 game.

 

[firstminion]

Cry Engine 2 was already done well before Dx11 cards were out, the engine was for the most part complete for Crysis 2 game.

Crysis 2 is Cry Engine 3.

 

[I.S.T.]

Correct. Cryengine 1 is Far Cry 1, Crysis 1, Crysis Warhead and Crysis 2 are all variations of Cryengine 2, and Crysis 3 is Cryengine 3.

 

[Razor1]

Crysis 2 is Cry Engine 3.

no it wasn't, Tessellation came out as a patch for Crysis 2, and it was an updated Cry Engine 2.

 

[AlNom]

I thought they demoed CE3 before Crysis 2. It was all about LPV and multiplat development.

Don't know what tessellation has to do with the public version numbering.

Anyways.

Maybe they should have had many tears for the various features.

 

[lanek]

no it wasn't, Tessellation came out as a patch for Crysis 2, and it was an updated Cry Engine 2.

One of the most costly patch of the history of gaming: 5millions of dollars given by Nvidia and a 4 months delay for release the game... ( does the developpers of Crytek, really need 4 months, and 5millions for learn how to use tesselation ?

Well, maybe Batman Arkham knight have beat now this 5 millions patch cost , but for different reasons lol ..

dont take it too seriously, i was think it will be a little joke .

 

[RedVi]

Yes they announced CE3 before announcing Crysis 2. Crysis 2 is a CE3 game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryEngine

 

[Razor1]

I've developed on Cry Engine 1 and 2 so pretty familiar with which engine Crysis 2 used

Cry Engine 3 is indeed multi platform version of Cry Engine 2, but there were many changes in shaders to make cross platform performance better. (this is why we never went with Cry Engine 3 cause we didn't need cross platform)

 

[firstminion]

no it wasn't, Tessellation came out as a patch for Crysis 2, and it was an updated Cry Engine 2.

"Crysis 2 is built with CryENGINE 3"
http://www.crytek.com/games/crysis2/overview

Public information says that Crysis 2 is CE3. Still, CE3 may be a patched up CE2 so your input is valuable (I do remember news of new features through updates).

 

[CarstenS]

Wouldn't it be funny if Crysis 3 exhibits the same, questionable behaviour that was mentioned (the water) with it being a Get-in-the-Game title? I don't know whether or not it will, maybe someone wants to check? As far as i recall there are levels on different heights above the waterline, so maybe we can see if the behaviour Razor1 described is still present?

 

[Ethatron]

Sigh. The water-volume can be turned off completely with a cvar, otherwise it is adaptive resolution; if you go far enough away (say far-plane style far) it's also none or 1 or 4 triangles. It's also drawn after other geometry, like the sky, so if terrain covers the geometry entirely it's all occlusion culled. The assumption that because you can forcefully make it visible, it effectively has any significance in the utilized context, is simply wrong.
If you make a city like GTA or Watch Dogs and you have terrain on, but the city actually sealed the entire surface and even the parks are something else, you might also think conspirativly why the heck is the stupid terrain still on? Well, because it's [sufficiently] free [or neglible], ofc.

 

[Razor1]

CartemS Cry Engine 3 is essentially Cry Engine 2 with cross platform support, I don't think base voxel terrain generation was changed

Ethatron, yes if there was a variable or a flag for it when in FOV or not that would have been nice but to my recollection there was none, but most of Crysis and Crysis 2 levels have water in them (outdoor), I think that is why the problem is there. The extra geometry processing might not be stopped, pixel overdraw for pixel shaders could be stopped though.