NVIDIA Bridging It (PCI-Express)

arjan de lumens said:
Xmas said:
I fail to see where the big advantage for ATI is.
Production cost. The Nvidia bridge chip will add a few dollars to the cost of every card it appears on (the 2.5 GHz datarates of PCI-E require a lot of power/ground pins, as well as a package type with good signal integrity -> added packaging cost)
Yep, there are pros and cons to each approach.

Perhaps the largest reason for the apparent difference in strategy is the fact that ATI makes their own boards. nVidia just sells chips. Selling more chips is a potential bonus for nVidia financially (particularly if their chips are the only ones in their class that can be sold on PCI Express....ATI may not produce a low-end PCI Express part, but nVidia will definitely have PCI Express versions of the 5200, and perhaps a GF4 MX part, too).

Since ATI also sells boards as well as chips, they are more vulnerable to the extra costs required in implementing a bridge chip.

Now, nVidia may end up having to sell the bridge chips for a loss (I would expect that nVidia won't be losing money on the whole on selling the two chips per board, but the extra cost of the bridge won't offset the cost to manufacture the bridge is what I mean), but that's a risk of extra expense vs. certain extra expense for nVidia.
 
Ummm, AFAIK ATI's board production capabilities are mainly limited to the All-In-Wonder lines these days. They certainly do not have enough in-house board production to satiate the need of the OEM's, which is what the PCI-Express transisition is all about. In terms of OEM supplies ATI and NVIDIA operate on very similar models in that they rely on big producers to churn out their boards for them - in the case of ATI, PC Partner and Fairway are producing the the vast majority of the OEM boards.
 
arjan de lumens said:
Xmas said:
I fail to see where the big advantage for ATI is.
Production cost. The Nvidia bridge chip will add a few dollars to the cost of every card it appears on (the 2.5 GHz datarates of PCI-E require a lot of power/ground pins, as well as a package type with good signal integrity -> added packaging cost)
I'd expect the bridge to be in the <$4 range/chip. This is a substantial cost overall, but if they have the right native interface at the right time, the bridge will be needed on far less than half the boards. I don't think ATI is spending much less money with their two versions strategy.
 
OK, so back to some comments from earlier again:

Aside from the cost to buy a chip+bridge chip versus just a chip, what about the impact on the expense of manufacturing and testing an actual card that uses one chip versus two?

The cost difference for designing a distinct version of the chip is an up-front, and one time unique cost per chip (if done without rushing, presumably), but the savings for simpler board design and validation should be on each and every board made and chip sold of a revision. Correct?

With an OEM computer seller push for "PCI Express" as a "checkbox feature", it seems to me like there will be plenty of opportunity to offset that initial cost with numerous cards in OEM "PCI Express" checkbox machines as part of the PCI-Express launch effort, as it leaves more room for maintaining a higher margin, room for competitive pricing to increase marketshare while still making money, and an attractiveness to board makers for less costly board manufacturer.

In terms of chip sales profit, however, having the native PCI Express chip only needs to happen in time to balance clearing out stock and having PCI Express cards available and priced competitively and maintaining profitability, with validated board designs of lesser complexity to go with them, and having the designs tested soon enough not to have to "rush" and spend extra money to do so. nVidia seems like they can still have native PCI Express chips in time for this, except that they haven't provided widespread confirmation of this effort being non-problematic yet while ATI seems to have done so. However, if they don't spend extra money on rushing things, and have things ready when necessary, there should be no real impact on this aspect of a native PCI-Express chip design.

The disadvantage for nVidia here seems to be in [relatively minor] the perception of "PCI Express leadership" amongst the "tech savvy" (like us, and the filtration of the impression that makes it into article commentaries and forum discussions across the net), [major, IMO] the confidence and desirability to OEM board manufacturers of their schedule, and how that trickles down to units moved to OEM PC builders on the "PCI Express" bandwagon.

I think this could easily relate to such things as Abit manufacturing ATI graphics cards as one example, and, with a grain of salt, ATI talking with confidence about OEM perception of their product line-up (don't have the quote handy).

Other factors might be involved, such as performance expectations outlined by each IHV (for chips and PCI Express), or conclusions OEMs are making about IHV marketability, or aggressive pricing steps taken by ATI that don't have a cost offset, but information about that isn't readily available at the moment...:?:
 
Another question is whether an OEM can legitimatly claim to have a full PCI-Express system if the graphics interface is still at AGP rates? Afterall, with the bridge any advantages of PCI-Express are lost once it gets the the graphics card.
 
Manufacturing cost for more chips: minor increase in time to pick/place the second chip. Potential minor increase in cost due to potential layout requiring more PCB layers.

Testing cost for more chips: no difference. Manufactured board comes off line, gets put in chassis, runs test software, passes or fails. 1 chip or 50 chips makes no difference.
 
Oh, I'm pretty sure that won't stop an OEM from meeting the PCI Express checkbox. :-?

Another question from earlier: where will the benefit from PCI Express show itself?

One supposition was low end "Shader 3.0" cards that used the (relatively) excessive CPU speed of new systems for some functionality, presuming high end cards do everything in hardware.

Something I don't recall being looked at is which specific features of concurrent API releases might benefit most from this.

For example:
Is the R3xx "host-based" TRUFORM a host->GPU communication bottleneck, or a CPU bottleneck? Both? What about geometry creation in "Shader 3.0"?

Anything in the OpenGL 2.0 specification that could easily be implemented with good host<->GPU communication bandwidth?

Could there be plans for API expansion that relate to enhancing the usefulness of host<->GPU communication as allowed by PCI-Express? Or maybe there are some already that haven't really been examined? What type of engine implementation techniques can result from occlusion queries? Can driver level usage of such offer significant benefits for shader utilization with more bandwidth?
 
RussSchultz said:
Manufacturing cost for more chips: minor increase in time to pick/place the second chip. Potential minor increase in cost due to potential layout requiring more PCB layers.

Isn't the cost for a tapeout minor compared to the R&D of a chip? How about in comparison to the multiplication of the minor savings on manufacture over millions of boards, or the profit margins on chip sales to OEMs attracted by that? It still seems obviously desirable for both nVidia and ATI in the short term (i.e., even before AGP is phased out).

Testing cost for more chips: no difference. Manufactured board comes off line, gets put in chassis, runs test software, passes or fails. 1 chip or 50 chips makes no difference.

Hmm...what about initial graphics card design validation, with demanding memory interface complexity and speed with an additional communication path added in, and is that all that is involved for subsequent testing? What about analysis for correcting what fails?
How do these costs compare to chip costs, anyways, high end and low end?
 
I am curious as to the cost in transistors wrt supporting it natively on chip as opposed supporting AGP. Does it require more transistors or less?
 
I don't know any specifics, but I do know that the increased BOM costs will be eaten by NVIDIA. Well, more accurately, the OEM/ODMs will evaluate the cost/benefit of the solutions and they'll hit up NVIDIA for any costs they feel they can.

NVIDIA knows this and their bean counters who know all the details of their business have presumably come to the conclusion that the engineering costs of updating their entire line to PCI-E is higher than the margin loss they'll experience by offering the bridge chip solution and eating that cost. It could also be the schedules don't line up and the bridge chip is a stop gap measure.

Personally, I think it makes sense from a planning perspective. No matter what the market demands, you've got the ability to service it at a cost of margin. If they didn't do this, they'd have to guess correctly with no safety net.

I think the bridge chip may prove invaluable in the future as it will allow new designs to target PCI-E and service both markets.

I see it as hedging a bet: paying now to reduce uncertainty later.
 
RussSchultz said:
NVIDIA knows this and their bean counters who know all the details of their business have presumably come to the conclusion that the engineering costs of updating their entire line to PCI-E is higher than the margin loss they'll experience by offering the bridge chip solution and eating that cost.

I agree.

ATI also knows this, and their bean counters have concluded that native PCI-E is the way to go.

In the end, they could both be right. (Each company will have their own unique set of circumstances that could favor one approach or the other.)

Of course, technically, native PCI-E is the best performance solution, so I'm happy that at least ATI's circumstances dictated that the best solution is also the more cost effective one.

For ATI, that's either having good luck of circumstances, or good planning, or a combination of both.
 
Just as a point of reference: were comments like this true (i.e., ATI having bridge chip designs if they decide there is benefit in them)? I don't think ATi's apparent path for PCI-Express adoption is a matter of not having a safety net at all, nor would it be for nVidia to have followed it at the same time.
 
ninelven said:
Originally, NV45 was going to be NVIDIA's first native PCI-E card; however, this may no longer be the case. The bridge chip does work both ways AFAIK.
Indeed, ATI and NVidia might be following a very similar strategy...
 
DaveBaumann said:
Another question is whether an OEM can legitimatly claim to have a full PCI-Express system if the graphics interface is still at AGP rates? Afterall, with the bridge any advantages of PCI-Express are lost once it gets the the graphics card.
Yes. Remember to me the times in witch 3DFX claimed to have AGP videocards (when they were barely using the AGP slot as a PCI one, or little more)! :)

Bye!
 
Apart from intel, IMHO Dell seems to be the biggest pusher of PCI-Express, as well as ExpressCard (which is based on PCI-Express and will replace PCMCIA).

Pics of the RV380 (9600 with native PCI-Express) and benchmarks on a Prescott system: http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/tpylab/cpu/0401/298500_5.html
edit: An RV380 with a PCI-Express 5200 (+close up of nVidia bridge): http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/foreline/graphics/0401/298914.html
one more edit: more PCI-Express 5200: http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/foreline/graphics/0401/296799.html
more RV380: http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/foreline/graphics/0401/292710.html
 
If I read that article correctly those are benchmarks for the Intel Extreme Graphics on their new 915 mobos

But then it is hard to tell:
0118_test_2.gif
 
Could be... I was just looking over at FutureMark - 2500 seems a bit low for a 9600 pro class card. But very good for onboard graphics.

I was just figuring out the markings on the (RV380) memory chips - Samsung K4D263238E-GE2A
 
JCLW said:
Apart from intel, IMHO Dell seems to be the biggest pusher of PCI-Express, as well as ExpressCard (which is based on PCI-Express and will replace PCMCIA).

Pics of the RV380 (9600 with native PCI-Express) and benchmarks on a Prescott system: http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/tpylab/cpu/0401/298500_5.html
edit: An RV380 with a PCI-Express 5200 (+close up of nVidia bridge): http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/foreline/graphics/0401/298914.html
one more edit: more PCI-Express 5200: http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/foreline/graphics/0401/296799.html
more RV380: http://www.pconline.com.cn/pchardware/foreline/graphics/0401/292710.html

Here's the babelfish translations:
Pics of the RV380
RV380 with PCI-Express 5200
more PCI-Express 5200
RV380
 
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