Nvidia Against 3D Mark 2003

[Dave H]

I think the bottomline is Nvidia should have just kept their mouth shut, because they've just managed to put their foot in their mouth by complaining.

Well we see their foot as being in their mouth. Then again, I don't think too many who read this forum would be choosing Nvidia if they were buying a new GPU tomorrow. (Just a guess.)

Probably the person who was already leaning towards a GF4 over a 9500 but might have been swayed by the vicious 3DMark03 discrepancy might instead be convinced to ignore it because of this scientific-looking document from Nvidia that says 3DMark03 is completely meaningless. It's been posted on a relatively large number of sites, generally without any in-depth objective comment. (Some have expressed skepticism, but without any substance.)

Will the general exasperation with Nvidia that many here feel "trickle down" into at least the broader enthusiast market? It's very possible, but only assuming Nvidia can't retake the lead at the high end (with a credible part) by the end of the year or so. The fanboys are slow to switch sides, but once they do they'll switch with a vengeance.

 

[jjayb]

The fanboys are slow to switch sides, but once they do they'll switch with a vengeance.

Typedef being a great example. (no offense typedef, it's just odd seeing you lash out at Nvidia.) Would be kinda like seeing Hellbinder saying ATI sucks.

 

[Ichneumon]

Yes, I liked that post a lot, Dave H!

A question...is it possible to change it to use CPU based vertex shading (i.e., turn off hardware support) on the 9700 and see how it scales with different CPU speeds? That might give us a decent idea of the significance of the workload (depending on how much of a bottleneck AGP transfer is).

I put the option of forcing 1.0 PS/VS in the tweaker... my guess is if you set VS to 1.0 then 3dmark will default to using CPU for vertex operations though i haven't tested this. If you have the PRO version of 3dmark then you can select it from in the bench as well.

 

[Andergum]

Great thread.... this in particular struck me

Obviously, Nvidia's problem is that while their same generation cards all win, ATI has a higher generation part at every price point (until GFfx comes out).

I hadn't realized just how far behind Nvidia really is at this point because of the delays of the Nv30.

 

[Pete]

Brent, did these new drivers have any affect in game performance or are they tailored fo 3DMARK ?

Excellent point.

Brent, care to help out those of us without FX:U's churning away in their cases?

 

[Dave H]

Typedef being a great example. (no offense typedef, it's just odd seeing you lash out at Nvidia.) Would be kinda like seeing Hellbinder saying ATI sucks.

Well I can't speak to Typedef's alleged former fanboyism, but even if true the difference is that Typedef knows what he's talking about. Someone like that will yield to facts pretty quickly once those facts become overwhelming, because they're knowledgeable enough to know when that is. Most 3d fanboys on the Internet don't have a clue about graphics technology, which means the facts have to diffuse through the masses, converting people one at a time, until by the time the mob has shifted, whatever caused them to change in the first place often is no longer true.

 

[Nagorak]

Well I can't speak to Typedef's alleged former fanboyism, but even if true the difference is that Typedef knows what he's talking about. Someone like that will yield to facts pretty quickly once those facts become overwhelming, because they're knowledgeable enough to know when that is. Most 3d fanboys on the Internet don't have a clue about graphics technology, which means the facts have to diffuse through the masses, converting people one at a time, until by the time the mob has shifted, whatever caused them to change in the first place often is no longer true.

This doesn't just happen on the internet, unfortunately. Most people just don't have a clue about a lot of things. :? That's, why this sort of "propaganda" actually works... As well as stuff like the Ti4800 SE.

 

[Mark]

I'm looking forward to a Futuremark rebuttal. They have to protect their protect afterall, much like nVidia is trying to do.

 

[Althornin]

so where are those Software VS tests on the 9700?
Come on, all you people with tha big bucks for 3dmark03 Pro, lets get crackin

And yes, Dave H - just wanted to say, you have really been posting some nicely thought out posts recently - a sudden surge of posts actually. What happened, some alien mind implant, or just a revived interest? (not to imply you need an alien mind implant).

 

[Dave H]

And yes, Dave H - just wanted to say, you have really been posting some nicely thought out posts recently - a sudden surge of posts actually.

Aw shucks. 8)

What happened, some alien mind implant, or just a revived interest? (not to imply you need an alien mind implant).

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Unless the aliens gave me amnesia too, AFAICT I've only been posting here for a few weeks now, so maybe you have me confused with someone else?

Or if my posts really have been improving...one thing could be that I didn't really have any in-depth knowledge of graphics tech before I started lurking the forums here several months ago. I waited until I thought I knew what I was talking about before opening my mouth...but in some cases I was wrong about that.

 

[Althornin]

Oops.
Its totally possible that i have mixed you up in my mind with one of the other "Daves" around here, with regards to past posting.

 

[Mulciber]

Oops.
Its totally possible that i have mixed you up in my mind with one of the other "Daves" around here, with regards to past posting.

Theres deffinately a lot of daves on this board

 

[caywen]

My short opinion

Sorry, I don't have time to read the entire 9 pages of posts, so I apologize if this sentiment is old:

If NVidia dominated ATI on the 3DMark 2003 benchmarks, they'd be praising it as a great benchmark. But they don't, so they won't.

 

[Nappe1]

Oops.
Its totally possible that i have mixed you up in my mind with one of the other "Daves" around here, with regards to past posting.

Theres deffinately a lot of daves on this board

hmmh... let me see...
- Dave (at least used to be Dave Barron. need to check this when I see him IRL...)
- DaveBaumann
- Dave B (TotalVR)
- Dave H

any others?

 

[LeStoffer]

- Dave (at least used to be Dave Barron. need to check this when I see him IRL...)

Dave is still Dave (Barron)

 

[ET]

for example that tests 2 and 3 are very vertex shader bound. Although I'd say that their complaint about that isn't really justified if we look at 3DMark03 as a test of the graphics card.

It's not vertex bound on all platforms *wink wink nudge nudge*

Really? I haven't seen how results change with the resolution so my speculation may of course be wrong. Does changing from 1024x768 to 1280x1024 drop the score significantly on any card?

 

[Nappe1]

- Dave (at least used to be Dave Barron. need to check this when I see him IRL...)

Dave is still Dave (Barron)

did you notice the part in ()?
and no, I am not going to go Dallas... I am staying in finland...

 

[mczak]

Really? I haven't seen how results change with the resolution so my speculation may of course be wrong. Does changing from 1024x768 to 1280x1024 drop the score significantly on any card?

Here are some nice numbers: http://www.tech-report.com/etc/2003q1/3dmark03/index.x?pg=3
So, the benchmarks don't appear to be completely vertex bound (except maybe Test1 on the GF4MX which doesn't have vertex shaders and is thus maybe cpu limited?), but at least it looks like vertex shader performance indeed is somewhat important.

 

[jpaana]

- Dave (at least used to be Dave Barron. need to check this when I see him IRL...)

Dave is still Dave (Barron)

did you notice the part in ()?
and no, I am not going to go Dallas... I am staying in finland...

Yup, spoke with him in person today, he's over in Finland for a couple of days still.

 

[Nappe1]

- Dave (at least used to be Dave Barron. need to check this when I see him IRL...)

Dave is still Dave (Barron)

did you notice the part in ()?
and no, I am not going to go Dallas... I am staying in finland...

Yup, spoke with him in person today, he's over in Finland for a couple of days still.

well, Dave and I were planning to meet tomorrow, but it seems that I am not in Helsinki yet tomorrow, so that will move it further on...

my new job was planned to begin on tommorrow, but because of some delays it has been moved to monday. (Dave and my new job has nothing to do, though... we were just planning meeting while both are in Helsinki.)

and no, my new job isn't at Bitboys.