No Olympics thread yet?

[Captain Chickenpants]

It's only the top and bottom score that's discarded isn't it? I think most events do have an element such as this anyway. In boxing for example a point is only scored if 3 out of 5 judges decide a scoring punch has occurred. The same goes for Taekwondo (2 out of 4 judges). The gymnastics also discards top and bottom scores. Doesn't seem to stop odd stuff happening though.

Only today, a British Taekwondo fighter had her loss reversed after a ridiculous decision in her fight against a (ahem) Chinese fighter. A last minute kick to the head should have won the fight but bizarelly no point was awarded. So in this case 3 out of the 4 judges somehow decided it was a scoring kick, which defies belief if you saw it.

For a laugh, people should check out the reaction of the Cuban Taekwondo fighter when he got disqualified for taking too long to treat an injury. "Bad loser" somehow doesn't quite cut the mustard.

I was quite outraged when I saw the Taekwondo, but as one of the BBC commentators pointed out the positioning of the fighters and judges meant that the fighters had their backs to 2 of the judges (whilst the other 2 hada great view), so it is perfectly beleivable that they didn't see the kick, it is apparantly quite common for hits not to be scored because of this. The rules of the sport should be changed to allow for the use of a video replay.

CC

 

[Sxotty]

Ridiculous? How fast do you think Bolt would have gone with a massive 12.2 m/s tail wind? That's how fast the wind would have to be to eliminate air resistance. Of course it makes a difference. Scale a 5'7" guy (e.g. Walter Dix) to 6'5" and you have 32% more frontal surface area. I know it's not going to scale quite like that, but the difference is still very significant.

Mass matters a lot in the 100m because acceleration time is decent percentage of the total race time.

Find the Cd for a human running then we will have something to discuss. Until then I am not inclined to give it much relevance.

Acceleration is obviously important, but I think that the force to accelerate would be orders of magnitude greater than the force to overcome wind resistance. The relevance of roller blades and the like (any wheeled conveyance) is shaky as the friction resisting motion is smaller and rolling resistance and air resistance can be similar on in terms of orders of magnitude depending on the velocity.

And btw the last bit you wrote is quite contradictory. You were bemoaning the size increase as increasing air resistance, then arguing that there is no difference except likely a greater cross section to his muscles and higher strength which begs the question why are all sprinters not 7.5 feet tall.

 

[StefanS]

Even if the two gymnasts are under age, which is still under review (although personally it does seem to be the case) so is not historical fact yet, removing their golds would still have China winning by some margin.

They won't lose their gold medals. They IOC only demands official records, which, given the previous shady manoeuvres by the Chinese officials in this case, will be easily supplied. Instead the IOC should demanded extensive x-rays proof supplied by an independent lab. AFAIK, that method, while having some margin of inaccuracy, is certainly good enough to prove or disprove a 2 yrs. age discrepancy.

 

[chavvdarrr]

Yes, China has done an excellent job cheating their way to the medals.

all countries who were hosting Olympic games do that.
USA did it in 1996, the simple fact that they bribed the comitee to take it is disturbing
1 United States 44 32 25 101 221
2 Russia 26 21 16 63 136
3 Germany 20 18 27 65 123
4 China 16 22 12 50 104
5 France 15 7 15 37 74
6 Italy 13 10 12 35 71

Sydney 2000
G S B Total Points
1 United States 40 24 33 97 201
2 Russia 32 28 28 88 180
3 China 28 16 15 59 131
4 Australia 16 25 17 58 115
5 Germany 13 17 26 56 99
6 France 13 14 11 38 78

Greece 2004
United States 35 39 29 103
Russia 27 27 38 92
China 32 17 14 63
Australia 17 16 16 49
Germany 14 16 18 48
Japan 16 9 12 37
....
Greece 6 6 4

So, China has tremendous human potential, has the "right" politics in order to exploit it, they've been 4th, then 3rd twice in a row with big margin, in Greece they even had chances to finish with most golden medals,yet you claim they "cheat"

Just wait 4y to see how "honest" all Brtitain players will be.. i bet not UK athlete will be caught with medicine too
Flo-Jo was never caught, Marion Jones was never caught.... HOW?
I never read an explanation how MJ was tested and never caught.
And then I read MFelps explaining that he eats 12K cal per day and no drugs.
oooooyeeeeeee, and a green alien is packing sandwiches.

Pro-sport has nothing to do with health these days. They are what gladiators used to be in Rome.

 

[AlphaWolf]

They won't lose their gold medals. They IOC only demands official records, which, given the previous shady manoeuvres by the Chinese officials in this case, will be easily supplied. Instead the IOC should demanded extensive x-rays proof supplied by an independent lab. AFAIK, that method, while having some margin of inaccuracy, is certainly good enough to prove or disprove a 2 yrs. age discrepancy.

Yes, we should irradiate all gymnasts to protect them from the horrors of the sport. X-ray them till they glow.

 

[Bjorn]

I would like to see Bolt do the 400m. I'm guessing that he might reconsider doing that in a couple of years after he gets tired of winning everytime in 100m and 200m

 

[StefanS]

Yes, we should irradiate all gymnasts to protect them from the horrors of the sport. X-ray them till they glow.

I forgot a simple x-ray spells immediate death But way to go on the polemic chart.

You need 3 separate x-rays for that. One of the elbow joint, one of the knee joint and one of the spine (in particular the lower spine).

As for X-raying all participants, that's clearly not the case. In this case there has been quite conclusive evidence including an official birth register for 1 one the said athletes. I think in the spirit of fair competition, it's well warranted to demand some proof in this case.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I forgot a simple x-ray spells immediate death But way to go on the polemic chart.

You need 3 separate x-rays for that. One of the elbow joint, one of the knee joint and one of the spine (in particular the lower spine).

Sorry, but no one should be forced to be exposed to radiation for something like proof of age, however small you think the health risk may be. Especially when the 'proof' in this case wouldn't even be conclusive.

As for X-raying all participants, that's clearly not the case. In this case there has been quite conclusive evidence including an official birth register for 1 one the said athletes. I think in the spirit of fair competition, it's well warranted to demand some proof in this case.

You can't have special rules just because you think they are cheating. Who gets to decide who is suspected of cheating? Are you going to have someone (impartial I'm sure...) eyeball them and decide who is too young? You have to have the same requirements for all athletes. I'd hardly call a newspaper article conclusive.

 

[Captain Chickenpants]

I said it near the start of this thread and I say it again. I feel sorry for people who automatically assume that people will cheat. Perhaps I am stupidly naive, but I think that people (in general) are better than that.

For an interesting and informed view on the subject (not fully supporting my point of view) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3399691.ece

 

[Skrying]

Automatically? Besides the extremely obvious visual evidence there are a increasing number of reports of the gymnasts being under age. How is being curious and concerned about the matter automatically assuming? It's not, and I personally think it should be checked further and in a more official capacity. People at this forum might not care to much about the Olympics but billions do, that much is clear.

 

[Anarchist4000]

Didn't previous Chinese gymnasts even come out and say that they weren't 16 when they competed? I think it was during the 2000 Olympics.

Of all the countries to host the Olympics China by far had the most reason to cover things up and do well. Even the Soviets heavily used doping just so they wouldn't appear weak on the international stage. I have no doubt China would do the same.

It's also interesting that despite the gymnasts being really good they don't have very much international experience behind them. If they were that good I'd expect China to have them competing on the international stage.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Lots of gymnasts were very open about competing under the age of 16. Right up until they decided in 1996 (post olympics) that gymnasts should be required to be 16 to compete.

 

[Sxotty]

It did seem in the past that communist countries were much more likely to have government sanctioned doping whereas the capitalist countries were more likely to have athletes seek it out on their own.

As for now, doping and underage are totally different issues.

 

[nutball]

Seems we won a gold medal not only in sitting down but also in standing up and having a fight. Does that mean we've beaten Australia at their national sport?

 

[Pete]

Sorry, but no one should be forced to be exposed to radiation for something like proof of age, however small you think the health risk may be. Especially when the 'proof' in this case wouldn't even be conclusive.

So you allow them the gold even though it's more than likely they cheated? To avoid inconveniencing them (as opposed to their competitors)? I dunno, it's a little suspicious at least two of them had their DOBs changed/corrected this year, and a lot of them just look tiny. And it's hard to ignore that previous winner who said she was underage when she competed in a previous games.

chavvdarrr, 10k+ calories a day isn't unheard of for an athlete. I understand being suspicious of his dominance, but not of his caloric intake.

 

[AlphaWolf]

So you allow them the gold even though it's more than likely they cheated? To avoid inconveniencing them (as opposed to their competitors)? I dunno, it's a little suspicious at least two of them had their DOBs changed/corrected this year, and a lot of them just look tiny. And it's hard to ignore that previous winner who said she was underage when she competed in a previous games.

Sure its suspicious, but if you want a list of athletes I'd be suspicious of cheating, its not going to be short and its certainly not exclusive to the chinese.

I just find it odd that people are on a witch hunt over the chinese who might be underage when they are still eons away from finding a good solution to all the other cheaters (drugs)/problems (judging) in the olympics.

 

[Sxotty]

Nothing really indicates it is a witch hunt.

The reason people are all over the Chinese for cheating is what I already mentioned. A history of state sponsored cheating in states perceived as similar. Sporadic, or even common cheating that is not state sponsored is a totally different issue than state sponsored cheating.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Lets just say I find it amusing that people are bent out of shape (pun intended) over an underage gymnast. There's been so many people in that past that we know were cheating, although it was never proven.

 

[Pete]

I suppose there's something of a spotlight on the gymnasts b/c the differences are plainly visible, because they're all so young (and so maybe not as in control of their circumstances). But mostly that's secondary to the previous, China-based sources for their ages.

"Witch hunt" implies that the cheat in question (being under-age) doesn't exist, so it's not really applicable or appropriate. Just because there are other (maybe intractable) problems doesn't mean we should ignore one that at least is remotely possible to solve (in this specific case). It seems like a low-hanging fruit.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

chavvdarrr, 10k+ calories a day isn't unheard of for an athlete. I understand being suspicious of his dominance, but not of his caloric intake.

The guy is NOT eating 12k a day, somebody overhyped it somewhere...